A Religion Split

Mr. Aran

2005-04-20 08:12:43 pm

everybody knows it's true

Quote from Arkarian:

Lol, why would you get it if you're Catholic? Christians (like me) would want one.

Catholic is a type of Christianity

Thread title:

arkarian

2005-04-20 08:16:01 pm

red chamber dream

Yes, but they don't believe in Jesus in the same way as the Christians do.

Alright, we need to get back on-topic. If you want to make a religion thread or something, you may do so.

Random Zelda Person

2005-04-20 08:17:53 pm

I take it that you mean Protestant when you say Christian…

arkarian

2005-04-20 08:21:49 pm

red chamber dream

I don't really call myself any "branch" of Christianity; I'm just Christian. But, I guess I could fit into the Protestant category.

By the way, I split these posts so the Fusion thread wouldn't be off-topic, although I doubt it will go anywhere.

Mr. Aran

2005-04-20 08:30:02 pm

everybody knows it's true

Quote from Arkarian:

I don't really call myself any "branch" of Christianity; I'm just Christian. But, I guess I could fit into the Protestant category.

Do you go to one of those public churches or something?

Quote from Arkarian:

By the way, I split these posts so the Fusion thread wouldn't be off-topic, although I doubt it will go anywhere.

I feel honored to start this thread. Wink

Supuh

2005-04-20 08:42:10 pm

im atheist, i dont care about your pop or jesus, especially not the pope

arkarian

2005-04-20 08:49:18 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from Mr. Aran:

Do you go to one of those public churches or something?

...I didn't know there was anything besides public churches. Our church is open to anyone who wants to come, yes.

And Supuh, you may not care, but saying, "especially not the Pope" could easily offend someone. And I won't tolerate that here.

Chanoire

2005-04-20 08:56:34 pm

Quote from Arkarian:

Yes, but they don't believe in Jesus in the same way as the Christians do.

I'm pretty sure that Catholics describe themselves as Christian, though. It's a very catchall term at this point, and used more to distinguish those who believe in Christ as the Redeemer etc. from, say, [warning: probably inaccurate generalizations ahead!] Judaism, which doesn't accept the New Testament, or Islam, which considers Mohammed to be greater than Jesus.

If you're referring to the belief in the Trinity -- that Jesus is also God, as is the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost -- then it might be more accurate to call it Trinitarian. I don't know to what degree belief in the Trinity is present in collective Protestantism, though, so I'm not sure if that's the contrast you're drawing.

Random Zelda Person

2005-04-20 08:57:20 pm

Quote from Supuh:

…i dont care about your pop…

[pun=lame]Of course! Only Kool-Aid.[/pun]

arkarian

2005-04-20 09:00:43 pm

red chamber dream

I believe you are correct about Judaism. Although, I try to focus more on my own religion than on others, but it's good to understand what other people believe as well.

And what I meant was that some Catholics (all? I dunno) put more of an emphasis on communion and such and believe that the priest actually transforms the bread and wine into the body of Jesus. At least, that's what I've heard. And some believe that you HAVE to get baptised, while in my faith, it's not required, but it is highly encouraged. I have a pretty free faith; nothing is required to get into Heaven besides truly accepting Jesus as your Saviour.

As for the Trinity thing, my faith definitely puts an emphasis on the Trinity; it's one of the most important things. So maybe I'm not Protestant, I dunno. I'm just a plain old Christian...if that makes any sense.

RZP: Nice pun. Rolling Eyes

tomatobob

2005-04-20 09:03:42 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Arkarian:

I don't really call myself any "branch" of Christianity; I'm just Christian. But, I guess I could fit into the Protestant category.

If you're not Catholic and consider yourself Christian you're Protestent, there really isn't an in between that I know of, the only real diffenece I find is that Catholics don't use birth control, follow a pope, and pray to Mary. Protestents, like me, can pretty much ignore the pope if they want, and don't pray to Mary and can use birth control.

arkarian

2005-04-20 09:05:57 pm

red chamber dream

Yes, nicely put, tomatobob. I have never listened to a word the Pope has said in my entrie life, and our church never mentions the Pope, ever.

Yoshi348

2005-04-20 10:31:25 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Now, I don't pretend to be much of an expert on this, plus I'm not even Christian, so take what I say with a large grain of salt, but...

A cursory reading of Wikipedia seems to ...sort of confirm what I've thought the differences were... basically, in an oversimplified nutshell, Catholics are those who follow the Pope. Protestant is a term that has basically been kraidized beyond all recoginition, and now, in most usages, basically only means "Christian, but not Catholic". I have no clue on the Mary thing, but as for birth control, I know the last pope and this new one are against all forms of contraception, so most Catholics would probably follow that teaching (although as with all religions, some people are more "devout" than others). However, those labeled Protestants by common usage would not nessecarily be for contraception... but not nessecarily against it either. I hope that's a clear example.

DJGrenola

2005-04-20 11:39:11 pm

other differences: Catholics are expected to attend confession regularly, whereas Protestants are not. The Catholic faith also believes that after you die but before you go to heaven you have to suffer for your sins in a place they call Purgatory. Interestingly the existence or otherwise of Purgatory depends more or less entirely on where you think the comma should go in Luke 23:43 ("Verily I say unto thee this day, shalt thou be with me in paradise" versus "Verily I say unto thee, this day shalt thou be with me in paradise"). Protestantism was IIRC a branch of Christianity split off by Henry VIII in protest against the fact that the Pope was less than pleased about the idea of his marrying Anne Boleyn after he'd already divorced Catherine of Aragon (hence the name). For this reason, Protestant Christians are also known as Church of England (or C of E, or sometimes Anglican).

There are various other types of Christians; Methodists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Plymouth Brethren, Quakers, the list goes on and on. I think that most of these though are splinter groups split off from Protestantism, so they are probably still classifiable as Protestants, just not mainstream ones.

And no, I don't believe in God.

other differences: Catholics are expected to attend confession regularly, whereas Protestants are not. The Catholic faith also believes that after you die but before you go to heaven you have to suffer for your sins in a place they call Purgatory. Interestingly the existence or otherwise of Purgatory depends more or less entirely on where you think the comma should go in Luke 23:43 ("Verily I say unto thee this day, shalt thou be with me in paradise" versus "Verily I say unto thee, this day shalt thou be with me in paradise"). Protestantism was IIRC a branch of Christianity split off by Henry VIII in protest against the fact that the Pope was less than pleased about the idea of his marrying Anne Boleyn after he'd already divorced Catherine of Aragon (hence the name). For this reason, Protestant Christians are also known as Church of England (or C of E, or sometimes Anglican).

There are various other types of Christians; Methodists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Plymouth Brethren, Quakers, the list goes on and on. I think that most of these though are splinter groups split off from Protestantism, so they are probably still classifiable as Protestants, just not mainstream ones.

And no, I don't believe in God.

Zeffie

2005-04-21 01:22:01 am

I've learned from experiance of growing up as a Catholic until I was 17 and went through the motions of communion and confirmation, and then a few months later ended up at a Church camp making a decision to commit my life to Jesus, that there is alot of generalization when people talk about Catholics and Protestants. Alot of it lacks evidence, because every individual has their own perspective and faith based on experience and learning. You can say that, Church A over here believes that Communion is the Body of Christ, and that you must go to confession before accepting Communion. While Church B over here, says that you can come just as you are to accept Communion, even if you have sin not forgiven in your own life, because you can be forgiven as you take Communion and be cleansed of all Unrighteousness. But then you may find a person from Church A who doesn't agree with the belief of the church in regards to Communion. Or you may find that someone has a whole other perspective on things than what the Church may be teaching. Because each individual is different, and each individual has their own unique perspective and faith on what they believe. Which can change.

I've learned that you can never assume what someone belives, nor can you stereotype someone from a specific faith, or denomination. You must learn where they come from, who they are, what they believe, why they believe it, and why they have faith in what they believe. What is their perspective on life?

I went from being a Catholic, to being a Protestan so to speak, to breaking away from a specific denomination, or label. I still proclaim myself as a Christian, and I do follow the Bible word for word, and follow teaching on it. But I do not label myself as Baptist, Catholic, Orthodox, Pentecostal, or anything else. I view the church as not the four walls of a building, but the Body of Christ itself, meaning the people in Christ. The people are what make up the Church. I can enjoy sitting down with a Catholic, a Jew, a Baptist, or anyone else, and fellowship with them. Do we agree on every point? Probably not, is there still a place for debate and argument? Of course. But that doesn't mean I have to be limited in loving, or wanting to walk in a relationship with someone, just because they see things in another perspective.

Not everyone follows the belief of their religion down to a T, nor do they actually believe it. And honestly, I've seen alot of people just go with the motion of raising their child Catholic, because it's assumed. Not because they actually have a living understanding of God, or faith in God. So it's all perspective, you can't really generalize, or stereotype people in their beliefs. Even if their, "belief" is a general one.

I've learned from experiance of growing up as a Catholic until I was 17 and went through the motions of communion and confirmation, and then a few months later ended up at a Church camp making a decision to commit my life to Jesus, that there is alot of generalization when people talk about Catholics and Protestants. Alot of it lacks evidence, because every individual has their own perspective and faith based on experience and learning. You can say that, Church A over here believes that Communion is the Body of Christ, and that you must go to confession before accepting Communion. While Church B over here, says that you can come just as you are to accept Communion, even if you have sin not forgiven in your own life, because you can be forgiven as you take Communion and be cleansed of all Unrighteousness. But then you may find a person from Church A who doesn't agree with the belief of the church in regards to Communion. Or you may find that someone has a whole other perspective on things than what the Church may be teaching. Because each individual is different, and each individual has their own unique perspective and faith on what they believe. Which can change.

I've learned that you can never assume what someone belives, nor can you stereotype someone from a specific faith, or denomination. You must learn where they come from, who they are, what they believe, why they believe it, and why they have faith in what they believe. What is their perspective on life?

I went from being a Catholic, to being a Protestan so to speak, to breaking away from a specific denomination, or label. I still proclaim myself as a Christian, and I do follow the Bible word for word, and follow teaching on it. But I do not label myself as Baptist, Catholic, Orthodox, Pentecostal, or anything else. I view the church as not the four walls of a building, but the Body of Christ itself, meaning the people in Christ. The people are what make up the Church. I can enjoy sitting down with a Catholic, a Jew, a Baptist, or anyone else, and fellowship with them. Do we agree on every point? Probably not, is there still a place for debate and argument? Of course. But that doesn't mean I have to be limited in loving, or wanting to walk in a relationship with someone, just because they see things in another perspective.

Not everyone follows the belief of their religion down to a T, nor do they actually believe it. And honestly, I've seen alot of people just go with the motion of raising their child Catholic, because it's assumed. Not because they actually have a living understanding of God, or faith in God. So it's all perspective, you can't really generalize, or stereotype people in their beliefs. Even if their, "belief" is a general one.

SABERinBLUE

2005-04-21 01:22:29 am

Cook of the Sea

Quote from Arkarian:

As for the Trinity thing, my faith definitely puts an emphasis on the Trinity; it's one of the most important things. So maybe I'm not Protestant, I dunno. I'm just a plain old Christian...if that makes any sense.

Well, mostly, it doesn't, because by definition all Christians who are neither Catholic nor Greek Orthodox are Protestants.

Quote:

Protestantism was IIRC a branch of Christianity split off by Henry VIII in protest against the fact that the Pope was less than pleased about the idea of his marrying Anne Boleyn after he'd already divorced Catherine of Aragon (hence the name). For this reason, Protestant Christians are also known as Church of England (or C of E, or sometimes Anglican).

Not quite. The Church of England was indeed started for that reason, but the Protestant Reformation was sparked by Martin Luther, who nailed a list of grievances against the Catholic Church to a cathedral door.

By the way, this is crazy timing for this thread, because I, a devout Protestant since day one, am seriously considering becoming Catholic for a number of reasons.

[quote="Arkarian"]
As for the Trinity thing, my faith definitely puts an emphasis on the Trinity; it's one of the most important things. So maybe I'm not Protestant, I dunno. I'm just a plain old Christian...if that makes any sense.[/quote]

Well, mostly, it doesn't, because by definition all Christians who are neither Catholic nor Greek Orthodox are Protestants.

[quote]Protestantism was IIRC a branch of Christianity split off by Henry VIII in protest against the fact that the Pope was less than pleased about the idea of his marrying Anne Boleyn after he'd already divorced Catherine of Aragon (hence the name). For this reason, Protestant Christians are also known as Church of England (or C of E, or sometimes Anglican).[/quote]

Not quite.  The Church of England was indeed started for that reason, but the Protestant Reformation was sparked by Martin Luther, who nailed a list of grievances against the Catholic Church to a cathedral door.

By the way, this is crazy timing for this thread, because I, a devout Protestant since day one, am seriously considering becoming Catholic for a number of reasons.

DJGrenola

2005-04-21 01:46:10 am

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Quote:

Protestantism was IIRC a branch of Christianity split off by Henry VIII in protest against the fact that the Pope was less than pleased about the idea of his marrying Anne Boleyn after he'd already divorced Catherine of Aragon (hence the name). For this reason, Protestant Christians are also known as Church of England (or C of E, or sometimes Anglican).

Not quite. The Church of England was indeed started for that reason, but the Protestant Reformation was sparked by Martin Luther, who nailed a list of grievances against the Catholic Church to a cathedral door.

Ah cool, I didn't know that. Looks like those two are separate faiths then - I always thought they were the same.

SABERinBLUE

2005-04-21 02:01:18 am

Cook of the Sea

Meh, it's all the same faith to me. The Church of England is officially a Protestant branch, I think. And when I say that I'm considering becoming a Catholic, I mean that I would join the Catholic Church and take communion as a Catholic, but maintain some differences with the Catholic faith. It's all insanely complicated, my thing on this, but I consider the various branches of Christianity to be similar enough that one can move between them without an inordinate amount of hassle. There are some fundamental differences between Protestanism and Catholicism (heck, they use two different Bibles) but down at the very bottom of it all is the same message.

Skreemaster

2005-04-21 04:56:39 am

I'll be back. Maybe...

I have some very obtuse views on religion, mainly involving the futility of blind faith and the purposelessness of worship as compared to actual good deeds. I am, of course, an atheist. Which reminds me: go look at Benedict XVI's policies as regards various things, for example rock music.

Snytbaggen

2005-04-21 11:17:00 am

The pope likes rock music?!! Shocked

I'm a protestant, and i must say it's an interesting discussion you have here.

Skreemaster

2005-04-21 11:48:08 am

I'll be back. Maybe...

No. The pope doesn't like rock music. Or many other things, in fact. If you looked, for example on the BBC news website, you'd find this.

He who seeks shall find. (Whereas he who dost not shalt be guilty of sloth.)

Izo

2005-04-21 12:31:05 pm

soaking through

Woah, a lot of people are (quite possibly unintentionally) talking out their arses here. If Nate knew about religion, he'd be going crazy.

I'll write a short summary, and may well get a few bits wrong, so feel free to correct me.

The three main denominations of the church are Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and the various Protestant churches, in order of oldest to youngest. Any church that is neither Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox is Protestant.

The Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches were united for till around 1000 CE, and share many ideas. They differ chiefly in the fact that the Orthodox Church treats all Bishops and Patriarchs equally, whereas in the Catholic Church there is an important hierarchy of power, obviously with the Pope at the top.

The protestant churches split off around 1500 because Martin Luther was basically pissed off at the fact that the church wasn't peasant friendly, the priests were being naughty, and indulgences (contracts to buy your way into heaven) were being sold. He nailed his grievances to the cathedral door, and Protestancy was born.

At first Henry VIII was originally strictly Catholic, which led the Pope, rather ironically, to give him the title of "Fidei Defensor", or Defender of the Faith. Then the Pope wouldn't give him a divorce, so Henry VII said sod this old man and made the Church of England, which recognises the reigning monarch as head of the church.

Catholics tend to be more conservative: abortion, contraception, and most ferility treatments are completely banned, mostly because of Natural Law, a belief that Protestants do not hold. Most Protestant churches allow abortion in some cases, allow contraception, and allow some fertility treatment; indeed, IIRC, Quakers even allow euthanasia, which pretty much all other churches completely ban.

Orthodoxy I don't know as much about, except for the fact that they pray through images of Saints, which other churches don't do.

Phew, that was long. I've probably missed a lot of stuff out as well.

Woah, a lot of people are (quite possibly unintentionally) talking out their arses here.  If Nate knew about religion, he'd be going crazy.

I'll write a short summary, and may well get a few bits wrong, so feel free to correct me.

The three main denominations of the church are Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and the various Protestant churches, in order of oldest to youngest.  Any church that is neither Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox is Protestant.

The Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches were united for till around 1000 CE, and share many ideas.  They differ chiefly in the fact that the Orthodox Church treats all Bishops and Patriarchs equally, whereas in the Catholic Church there is an important hierarchy of power, obviously with the Pope at the top.

The protestant churches split off around 1500 because Martin Luther was basically pissed off at the fact that the church wasn't peasant friendly, the priests were being naughty, and indulgences (contracts to buy your way into heaven) were being sold.  He nailed his grievances to the cathedral door, and Protestancy was born.

At first Henry VIII was originally strictly Catholic, which led the Pope, rather ironically, to give him the title of "Fidei Defensor", or Defender of the Faith.  Then the Pope wouldn't give him a divorce, so Henry VII said sod this old man and made the Church of England, which recognises the reigning monarch as head of the church.

Catholics tend to be more conservative: abortion, contraception, and most ferility treatments are completely banned, mostly because of Natural Law, a belief that Protestants do not hold.  Most Protestant churches allow abortion in some cases, allow contraception, and allow some fertility treatment; indeed, IIRC, Quakers even allow euthanasia, which pretty much all other churches completely ban.

Orthodoxy I don't know as much about, except for the fact that they pray through images of Saints, which other churches don't do.

Phew, that was long.  I've probably missed a lot of stuff out as well.

Purple Lizard

2005-04-21 12:40:56 pm

Let's see... I don't particularly conform to any set of beliefs. I suppose the closest label you could use is "buddhist", but I can't say I'm purely a buddhist either. All I really gotta say on this subject is follow whatever belief you want, as long as it is what you truly believe in. I've held discussions with people of many different faiths, from Judaism, born-again Christian, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslim, Islam, Hindu, etc. throughout college and my days waiting tables. Some have been quite civil, some fanatically hostile. The common question I like to ask, though, is "Why are you believe in <insert faith>?" Is it because of society? Your parents? Or is it the path that you yourself chose for yourself?" There are quite the number of people out there that are religious only for the social aspect of it, or because their parents made them.

Really, though, when it comes down to it, many religions follow the same basic principles. Respect yourself, your fellow man, be at peace with yourself, and all that good stuff. It's when people starting carrying out acts for their own gain and feeling justified because it is in the name of their imposed diety that troubles arise. This applies to ALL religions.

Edit:
amazon link

To emphasize what I said above, I posted a link to a book I've read a few times. In terms of religion-related reading material, I found this to be one of the more fascinating texts. It was written by a Zen buddhist monk who spent some time with a christian monestary. In the book, he tries to eliminate the perception that both religions are fundamentally different, and draws parallels between the two. I think his very first paragraph in the book says it best:

Quote from Thich Nhat Hanh:

Twenty years ago at a conference I attended of theologians and professors of religion, an Indian Christian friend told the assembly, "We are going to hear about the beauties of several traditions, but that does not mean that we are going to make a fruit salad. When it came my turn to speak, I said "Fruit salad can be delicious! I have shared the Eucharist with Father Daniel Berrigan, and our worship became possible because of the sufferings we Vietnamese and Americans shared over many years. " Some of the Buddhists present were shocked to hear I had participated in the Eucharist, and many Christians seemed truly horrified. To me, religious life is life. I do not see any reason to spend one's whole life tasting just one kind of fruit. We human beings can be nourished by the best values of many traditions."

Let's see... I don't particularly conform to any set of beliefs.  I suppose the closest label you could use is "buddhist", but I can't say I'm purely a buddhist either.  All I really gotta say on this subject is follow whatever belief you want, as long as it is what you truly believe in.  I've held discussions with people of many different faiths, from Judaism, born-again Christian, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslim, Islam, Hindu, etc.  throughout college and my days waiting tables.  Some have been quite civil, some fanatically hostile.  The common question I like to ask, though, is "Why are you believe in <insert faith>?"  Is it because of society?  Your parents?   Or is it the path that you yourself chose for yourself?"  There are quite the number of people out there that are religious only for the social aspect of it, or because their parents made them.

Really, though, when it comes down to it, many religions follow the same [b]basic[/b] principles.  Respect yourself, your fellow man, be at peace with yourself, and all that good stuff.  It's when people starting carrying out acts for their own gain and feeling justified because it is in the name of their imposed diety that troubles arise.  This applies to ALL religions.

Edit:
[url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573220183/qid=1114097061/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-6886932-7411812?v=glance&s=books&n=507846]amazon link[/url]

To emphasize what I said above, I posted a link to a book I've read a few times.  In terms of religion-related reading material, I found this to be one of the more fascinating texts.  It was written by a Zen buddhist monk who spent some time with a christian monestary.  In the book, he tries to eliminate the perception that both religions are fundamentally different, and draws parallels between the two.  I think his very first paragraph in the book says it best:

[quote="Thich Nhat Hanh"]
Twenty years ago at a conference I attended of theologians and professors of religion, an Indian Christian friend told the assembly, "We are going to hear about the beauties of several traditions, but that does not mean that we are going to make a fruit salad.  When it came my turn to speak, I said "Fruit salad can be delicious!  I have shared the Eucharist with Father Daniel Berrigan, and our worship became possible because of the sufferings we Vietnamese and Americans shared over many years.  "  Some of the Buddhists present were shocked to hear I had participated in the Eucharist, and many Christians seemed truly horrified.  To me, religious life is life.  I do not see any reason to spend one's whole life tasting just one kind of fruit.  We human beings can be nourished by the best values of many traditions."[/quote]

Skreemaster

2005-04-21 12:59:54 pm

I'll be back. Maybe...

Though 'born-again' Christians are particularly good at condemning all kinds of things in the name of God, most notably evolution: teaching a literal interpretation of Genesis, [i]in elementary schools, [/]as 'self-evident' fact, is something I cannot stand. It makes no sense, is a travesty of metaphor, and is a blind credence of ancient guesswork and outmoded... Exclamation

Wait... *gulp*... are there any... 'born-again' Christians... here?

There is plenty more I could say about them, and also plenty I could say about, for example, the Pope's traditionalist views, fundamentalist Muslims, and spiritualists, but I won't, to the preservation of your sanity and my health.

Yoshi348

2005-04-21 01:47:00 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

You're sounding like a "born-again" atheist, Skreemaster, with blind faith in the idiocy of blind faith.