Speed tricks topic

2004-12-11 02:37:00 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Sorry, I was just mentioning the trick he did in that room. No need to be so hyper and stuff, BoostR. Calm down.

2004-12-11 04:49:15 pm

omgliekwtflol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
kahtrghnguhdnyuyn! lifa laloo.???????

<_<

Eh, I wasn't THAT excited, really. I just wondered if you had a way. Anyway, on to the point of my post:

I seem to have found a sort of combat dash jump. Like, where you lock onto enemies. >_>
Just do it the same way as Prime, but when you start moving, hold R in addition to L.

I used this to bypass the spinner in Forgotten Bridge, that normally is the only way to get to Chykka after moving the bridge. Instead, I just combat dashed from that circular center point on the bridge to the portal's ledge. I tried scan dashing (kip's scan dash), but I didn't quite get the angle I wanted, so I never made it. So it's useful if enemies are in the room, because they'll move around and give you different points to lock on from.

Using kip's scan dash, I found a speed trick: after you scan the panel to activate the mball cannon in Great Bridge, you'd normally go across the room, get fired from the cannon, and pelted with Shriekbats. Instead, I just scan dashed off of the eye behind the panel (behind = when you're facing the red thing on the panel), and landed on the bridge. The shriekbats were not triggered, and I happily made my way into the Torvus Temple to get my Super Missiles.

I also went into the PB Guardian's room from the yellow door. There seems to be a gigantic boss trigger all around the room, except inside that gate and the doorway of the yellow door. So much for trying to bomb him without starting the fight.

But, I found something: go to where you would normally drop onto the bridge, which isn't there during the fight. The highest spot on the spiderball track. From here, boost away from the track, right into the Power Bomb Guardian. Unmorph and if you're lucky, you'll be standing on the ledge with him! There's bad news too, though: it's TOUGH to get here, unless you know what you should be doing. Don't hold any directions while boosting. Unmorph a little before you hit him. Once you're on the ledge, it's extremely difficult to stay on. The Guardian is sticky, and pushes you off unless you can gain traction mband jump back up while standing in him. If he shoots a power bomb while you're on him, you'll fly off.
So if you want to leave, you'd have to make it up there, go AROUND the Guardian while staying up there, and screw attack to the door. Yikes.

Man, I'm sick of spiderballing all the way back up after each failed try. I hate this boss now. :x

Some things I noted, as well:
Annihilator does not hurt him.
Screw Attack does not hurt him.
None of the spiderball tracks seem to stick out enough for you to stand on them.
He's kinda like Flaahgra. >.> Yes, I just made the connection today.

Quote from TRH:

Lets stay positive here, alright. v_v

Hey hey, man, don't feel bad. You can't expect to practically skip an item by yourself when you find an awesome speed trick. And I happen to like that particular trick, too. It's nothing I could ever find... :?
Way easy to do, saves a ton of time, what's not to like? Mr. Green

omgliekwtflol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
kahtrghnguhdnyuyn!  lifa laloo.???????

<_<

Eh, I wasn't THAT excited, really.  I just wondered if you had a way.  Anyway, on to the point of my post:

I seem to have found a sort of combat dash jump.  Like, where you lock onto enemies.  >_>
Just do it the same way as Prime, but when you start moving, hold R in addition to L.

I used this to bypass the spinner in Forgotten Bridge, that normally is the only way to get to Chykka after moving the bridge.  Instead, I just combat dashed from that circular center point on the bridge to the portal's ledge.  I tried scan dashing (kip's scan dash), but I didn't quite get the angle I wanted, so I never made it.  So it's useful if enemies are in the room, because they'll move around and give you different points to lock on from.

Using kip's scan dash, I found a speed trick:  after you scan the panel to activate the mball cannon in Great Bridge, you'd normally go across the room, get fired from the cannon, and pelted with Shriekbats.  Instead, I just scan dashed off of the eye behind the panel (behind = when you're facing the red thing on the panel), and landed on the bridge.  The shriekbats were not triggered, and I happily made my way into the Torvus Temple to get my Super Missiles.

I also went into the PB Guardian's room from the yellow door.  There seems to be a gigantic boss trigger all around the room, except inside that gate and the doorway of the yellow door.  So much for trying to bomb him without starting the fight.

But, I found something:  go to where you would normally drop onto the bridge, which isn't there during the fight.  The highest spot on the spiderball track.  From here, boost away from the track, right into the Power Bomb Guardian.  Unmorph and if you're lucky, you'll be standing on the ledge with him!  There's bad news too, though:  it's TOUGH to get here, unless you know what you should be doing.  Don't hold any directions while boosting.  Unmorph a little before you hit him.  Once you're on the ledge, it's extremely difficult to stay on.  The Guardian is sticky, and pushes you off unless you can gain traction mband jump back up while standing in him.  If he shoots a power bomb while you're on him, you'll fly off.  
So if you want to leave, you'd have to make it up there, go AROUND the Guardian while staying up there, and screw attack to the door.  Yikes.

Man, I'm sick of spiderballing all the way back up after each failed try.  I hate this boss now. :x

Some things I noted, as well:
Annihilator does not hurt him.
Screw Attack does not hurt him.
None of the spiderball tracks seem to stick out enough for you to stand on them.
He's kinda like Flaahgra.  >.>  Yes, I just made the connection today.

[quote="TRH"]Lets stay positive here, alright. [size=10px]v_v[/size][/quote]

Hey hey, man, don't feel bad.  You can't expect to practically skip an item by yourself when you find an awesome speed trick.  And I happen to like that particular trick, too.  It's nothing I could ever find... :? 
Way easy to do, saves a ton of time, what's not to like? :mrgreen:

bushwacker

2004-12-11 07:08:58 pm

This WSA dash is pissing me off. Someone please critique me.

- get on the end of the cord, as close to the pit as possible.
- scan dash left. this is a legitimate circular dash, not just space jumping backwards. only tapping b, holding l, and jamming down on the stick before the screen freezes.
- while the screen is frozen, press and hold r and continue holding down on the stick.
- release l and rehold it quickly. my view slides up and i miss relocking onto the white door.
- quickly after the screen unfreezes, maybe less than a second, tap b again for the space jump.
- just continue holding l, r, and down until terminal fall activates and i am not placed by the e-tank.

Help ASAP kthxbye

bartendorsparky

2004-12-11 07:42:56 pm

always move fast

well, it sounds like you are doing everything right...are you actually dashing and stuff, and just not getting enough distance? ive never made it unless i held "right" a little bit, after the freeze, so maybe try that.

also, i made a 100% route incorporating early screw attack and stuff.
it seems very efficient, but more opinions are always helpful. so any comments/suggestions/etc. are appreciated.

http://www.metroid2002.com/bartendorsparky/mp2/100_Route.txt

EDIT: the part i am most concerned about is the cleanup at the end. it seems very good about backtracking, but you can never be too sure...

Radix

2004-12-11 07:45:01 pm

I've only made the jump once in an hour of trying, but I turned on reverse Y-axis like kip always uses in case that matters. Can anyone confirm doing it w/o turning it on? Because it'd be annoying to turn it on for this and back off again, especially with the 500 resets i'll have to do before I get this, the bars of echoes.

bushwacker

2004-12-11 07:46:06 pm

How much "right" should I use? Like between south and southeast on the stick?

bartendorsparky

2004-12-11 07:47:26 pm

always move fast

yeah, that sounds about right. i usually have about a 45 degree angle to the wall (you are facing the right wall a little) by the time the screen fades out.

Blublu

2004-12-11 08:37:15 pm

I didn't reverse Y-axis, and I made it over. Once.

I've been unable to repeat it, though. :x And I've been trying for a while. Why the hell did I get it once after only a handful of tries, and now I can't do it again? Argh....

edit: w00t! I did it again! I think I'm getting better at this...

BoostR

2004-12-11 08:38:14 pm

I had the normal axis on (up on cs looks down, vice versa).

<_<
Although if I rmember correctly, as soon as I started dashing, I began to bend the dash as if I were going towards the etank and it was Prime1. For the most part, I had to learn how to keep my momentum going. At first, I'd start out good, but near then end, I would no longer be flying backwards-it would look like a slow space jump. I think it's just a matter of fine tuning certain things, like maybe where you're looking, or the timing of releasing and holding L. Anyways, once I could start getting that, I just needed to learn to use my second jump at the best moment for the most height.

If it helps...I find it pretty difficult sometimes to look at something like this (a whole new technique, unlike anything else) from a technical standpoint. As in, press this and do this, then release that button, face this way, etc. Of course, at first it's always like this, and it's a matter of doing it enough times so that it becomes merely a muscle reflex, and you barely have to think about it at all-that's when you start focusing on other things. Once I could just do the dash, but didn't have enough height, I just played around and tried to adjust to whatever seemed the best for getting some extra height. Everyone learns differently, so someone telling you how to do it, or even you watching a vid of it might not help at all.

Take me, for example...it was like that with the early wild bomb jump. No explanation or vid helped me, besides giving me an idea of what it was like when done correctly. I eventually made it up almost to the door a few times, but never really had the desire or need to make it. But don't give up. :P That's not the point I was getting to!

Strive and you shall succeed.

I had the normal axis on (up on cs looks down, vice versa).

<_<
Although if I rmember correctly, as soon as I started dashing, I began to bend the dash as if I were going towards the etank and it was Prime1.  For the most part, I had to learn how to keep my momentum going.  At first, I'd start out good, but near then end, I would no longer be flying backwards-it would look like a slow space jump.  I think it's just a matter of fine tuning certain things, like maybe where you're looking, or the timing of releasing and holding L.  Anyways, once I could start getting that, I just needed to learn to use my second jump at the best moment for the most height.

If it helps...I find it pretty difficult sometimes to look at something like this (a whole new technique, unlike anything else) from a technical standpoint.  As in, press this and do this, then release that button, face this way, etc.  Of course, at first it's always like this, and it's a matter of doing it enough times so that it becomes merely a muscle reflex, and you barely have to think about it at all-that's when you start focusing on other things.  Once I could just do the dash, but didn't have enough height, I just played around and tried to adjust to whatever seemed the best for getting some extra height.  Everyone learns differently, so someone telling you how to do it, or even you watching a vid of it might not help at all.

Take me, for example...it was like that with the early wild bomb jump.  No explanation or vid helped me, besides giving me an idea of what it was like when done correctly.  I eventually made it up almost to the door a few times, but never really had the desire or need to make it.  But don't give up. :P  That's not the point I was getting to!

[i]Strive and you shall succeed.[/i]

bartendorsparky

2004-12-11 08:41:11 pm

always move fast

torvus bog pizzowned:

well, just to confirm, in forgotten bridge, you can also dash straight to abandoned worksite, saving lots of time or something...

great bridge: (the great ghetto)

go next to the green translator door, on the left, you will notice a slant. you must ghetto off this slant, onto the door. You must jump way, way early to get a super-ghetto effect. maybe this can be applied elsewhere, i dunno. anyway, ghetto to the top of the door.

fully dash the door, dont unfreeze the game until you are ready, you only get one shot. you must unfreeze it, then immediately do a kip dash, before it gets too low. dash over to the bridge, then just jump to the scan ledge and be happy.

BoostR

2004-12-11 08:50:04 pm

o_O

I'm confused...since the door moves down, you had the translator. But the point of getting to that panel early (without Forgotten Bridge) was to get to the Super Missiles/Translator quickly...

O_o

Does this work without the translator, too? I don't know why it wouldn't, but maybe there's some weird roof up there.

bartendorsparky

2004-12-11 08:52:28 pm

always move fast

heh...oh yeah...it wouldnt fall...unless retro has some crazy employees, i dont see why it wouldnt still work though.

Red Scarlet

2004-12-11 10:28:32 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Sparky's going to have a busy first day with his new capture card, making all these videos. :o :P

Soaprman

2004-12-11 11:10:45 pm

shrimp

and white wine

(I suppose this is the right topic to post this little comment in...)

I haven't thoroughly read through everything yet, but I was thinking about something concerning skipping the Dark Suit. Is it possible to get the Gravity Boost while wearing the Varia Suit? If so, what does it look like (the GB thing that goes on her back)?

Sorry if this seems like a stupid question by now. :P

Prime Hunter

2004-12-11 11:15:54 pm

I think that's a fair question, cause earlier today I was also wondering what happens if you grab the Gravity suit in Prime after getting the Phazon suit (The cutscene must be pretty weird...)

Personally, I have no clue about either of our questions. My guess is that it just doesn't show up, like when you get the Gravity Suit before the Spider Ball in Prime (Doesn't the morph ball stay as the Spider Ball Varia style, even though you have Gravity?)

nate

2004-12-11 11:20:58 pm

was interested to see that myself. it looks ... well, like you would expect. a gravity boost for the varia suit. pretty good looking, imo.

Phazon Siphon

2004-12-11 11:32:49 pm

Just figured that I'd let you all know that I discovered U-Mos's secret world, as it says "Credit needed" on the main page.

Nice job on the recent discoveries, guys. The whole "Kip Dash" thing must have taken a lot of tinkering to get right.

nate

2004-12-11 11:37:52 pm

you know you can add yourself as the discoverer, right?

Phazon Siphon

2004-12-11 11:53:58 pm

Ugh, I hate it when people pose questions that are obviously going to be responded to with a "no" but give the necessary information. Makes me feel dumb.

nate

2004-12-12 12:08:38 am

yeah, me too. sorry about that.

go add it to the wiki.

Phazon Siphon

2004-12-12 12:16:46 am

Quote from njahnke:

yeah, me too. sorry about that.

go add it to the wiki.

Meh, it's fine.

I added it, and a detailed explanation of how to get out.

Someone should add the method for SA Secret Worlds... it might be vital in some possible item skips.

EDIT: Well, it seems it's on there, but only for one room. The general method works for most morphball tunnels, and other such holes.

kip

2004-12-12 04:03:36 am

Revised explanation of how I do the WSA scan dash (remember to start with the door fully scanned):

1) all at the same time, hold L, tap B, and slam the stick left (the stick motion must be very quick/forceful). This part is exactly like a Prime dash, except you're holding L instead of tapping it.

2) as soon as you get the stick to left, move it as far down to straight down as you can get before the freeze occurs (do not keep it held at left). It should pretty much be one continuous motion; all this needs to be fast.

3) once the screen freezes, you have to add a few things... feel free to take your time here, I don't think it matters. Hold R now, and move the stick from straight down very slightly toward down-right (thanks sparky).

4) when ready, let go of L only to immediately hold it again (when you do this, do not hold it in all the way that you would scan the door again if it's still in view... only hold it enough that the crosshair appears). Do it as fast as you can.

5) about a second after the screen unfreezes, tap B again to use your second jump. At this point, don't do anything; just wait to see where you end up after falling (don't move the stick, don't let go of L or R).

I've been playing around with this again in an effort to figure out exactly what is important to making it, and what is unnecessary or harmful to do. I'm pretty consistent doing it the way I described, at least right at this moment. It could just be a lucky streak.

The thing that seemed most important to me when trying this was #2, not keeping the stick held at left any longer than it needs to be. The time of your second jump can also make or break the dash. If you wait more than about a second, the crosshair will disappear almost right after using the second jump, and like I said, we think your distance before that happens is what counts. The longer it takes, the better, so pay attention to when it disappears.

I turned off reverse y axis for a bit to see if anything would be different, and made it that way in a few tries. The fact that you look up instead of down doesn't seem to matter... so I don't think anything specific needs to be done differently.

Revised explanation of how I do the WSA scan dash (remember to start with the door fully scanned):

1) all at the same time, hold L, tap B, and slam the stick left (the stick motion must be very quick/forceful). This part is exactly like a Prime dash, except you're holding L instead of tapping it.

2) as soon as you get the stick to left, move it as far down to straight down as you can get before the freeze occurs (do not keep it held at left). It should pretty much be one continuous motion; all this needs to be fast.

3) once the screen freezes, you have to add a few things... feel free to take your time here, I don't think it matters. Hold R now, and move the stick from straight down very slightly toward down-right (thanks sparky).

4) when ready, let go of L only to immediately hold it again (when you do this, do not hold it in all the way that you would scan the door again if it's still in view... only hold it enough that the crosshair appears). Do it as fast as you can.

5) about a second after the screen unfreezes, tap B again to use your second jump. At this point, don't do anything; just wait to see where you end up after falling (don't move the stick, don't let go of L or R).

I've been playing around with this again in an effort to figure out exactly what is important to making it, and what is unnecessary or harmful to do. I'm pretty consistent doing it the way I described, at least right at this moment. It could just be a lucky streak.

The thing that seemed most important to me when trying this was #2, not keeping the stick held at left any longer than it needs to be. The time of your second jump can also make or break the dash. If you wait more than about a second, the crosshair will disappear almost right after using the second jump, and like I said, we think your distance before that happens is what counts. The longer it takes, the better, so pay attention to when it disappears.

I turned off reverse y axis for a bit to see if anything would be different, and made it that way in a few tries. The fact that you look up instead of down doesn't seem to matter... so I don't think anything specific needs to be done differently.

Red Scarlet

2004-12-12 07:02:43 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Woot, TRH rocks. Here's a video of the fast Darkburst!

http://trh.metroid2002.com/vids/echoes/mining_station_b.avi

bushwacker

2004-12-12 11:33:22 am

Quote:

2) as soon as you get the stick to left, move it as far down to straight down as you can get before the freeze occurs (do not keep it held at left). It should pretty much be one continuous motion; all this needs to be fast.

So you mean you ROTATE the stick counterclockwise? As in, DON'T move the stick diagnolly down right from 9 o'clock to 6 o'clock? Or DON'T move the stick from 9 o'clock back to the center, then from the center straight down to 6 o'clock? I still haven't managed to do this correctly and any and/or all little details seem important...

kip

2004-12-12 11:48:27 am

move it from 9 to 6... a quarter circle motion. You only want the stick to hit 9 to start the dash, don't even wait until you notice yourself dashing to move it.

It seems to be okay if you don't actually reach 6 by the time the screen freezes, but don't stop moving the stick until you get there.

After it's there, move it slightly toward down-right while the screen is frozen (and hold R). The stick should then stay at that point until you fall and reappear (until about the screen turns white).

Hope it helps.