Suitless speedrun

2007-06-10 02:11:20 pm

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I think it's doable on console; I'm actually surprised it hasn't been done yet. My home platform is the emulator, but I've done a suitless run there in realtime. My playstyle isn't terribly fast, but I've been practicing. Does anybody want to see this?

This is my current rough and partial route. Yes, it does have a lot of saves. More to come with further testing.

1. Ceres

2. Landing Site to just before Kraid; get all nine missiles along the way, mockball AND fight spore spawn for ten supers, and the blue brinstar etank (you can get it before bombs with careful damage boosting)

3. Kraid (I can only get the quick kill about 1 out of 3 times), Ice Beam, High Jump, save before the bubble room run

4. Bubble room run (I'm very bad at this for some reason, hopefully this will eventually be tacked onto the previous segment)

5. Speed Booster and Wave Beam errands; save with ~60 health

6. Crocomire and his items; I'm fairly sure it's best to go here in a non-TAS, as this gives me enough power bombs for Draygon, nabs me an extra etank, and lets me do the Mount Doom room without going insane. Save at the station just beside the Norfair elevator.

7. Go up and grab the two Power Bomb packs in red brinstar (I'll put this in segment 2 if I can ever get that jump right), then enter Maridia via gravity jump. Save in snail room. I'm not sure whether I should take the supers in the Mount Doom room or not; they waste nearly a minute, but they would make Draygon MUCH easier and lighten the pressure slightly in Lower Norfair.

8. Go to Draygon. Nothing special here; kill Botwoon with charged shots and maybe a wave shield if I can get the timing down.

9. Fight Draygon, using charged shots against swoops and missiles for the gunk. If I collect all ten of the pre-Norfair missiles, including the one near the Red Brinstar powerbombs, I can reach this point with between 15 and 21 missile packs, depending on how far out of my way I go in upper norfair. Assuming I don't get the extra Supers, I'll have to refill on the gunk and just hope; I estimate I'll need about 45-50 missiles for the fight. Add ten more for the crystal flash, ten more for killing the turrets, and five for opening the save room before draygon, and I'm looking at some very restricted ammo, especially given my need for Supers. At the fight, I could have almost full missiles. However, between Kraid and this segment (I assume minikraid can fill me up to full supers), I'll use nine supers, counting the doors before draygon. Luck would be very much needed if I only had two super missiles packs. Advice on which enemies drop supers consistently and the like would be very much appreciated. Oh, and save in the room I saved in last.

10. Return to the snail super room and take the far sandfall, nabbing a reserve tank on the way. Go up the maridian tube, grab plasma beam, then go to wrecked ship and kill phantoon. I'm currently testing to see if there's any way to 1-round him with the plasma beam, as that would just be way too cool on a console run.

EDIT: Ack, almost forgot to mention. I'm still working on strategies for finishing draygon that don't feature me shooting downward for six solid minutes waiting for a lucky hit. Ideas for this would be very welcome.

EDIT2: Just did some math and testing, and no luck on the 1-round kill. I can, however, pull off a snazzy-looking and very easy 2-rounder.

Thread title:

I think it's doable on console; I'm actually surprised it hasn't been done yet. My home platform is the emulator, but I've done a suitless run there in realtime. My playstyle isn't terribly fast, but I've been practicing. Does anybody want to see this?

This is my current rough and partial route. Yes, it does have a lot of saves. More to come with further testing.

1. Ceres

2. Landing Site to just before Kraid; get all nine missiles along the way, mockball AND fight spore spawn for ten supers, and the blue brinstar etank (you can get it before bombs with careful damage boosting)

3. Kraid (I can only get the quick kill about 1 out of 3 times), Ice Beam, High Jump, save before the bubble room run

4. Bubble room run (I'm very bad at this for some reason, hopefully this will eventually be tacked onto the previous segment)

5. Speed Booster and Wave Beam errands; save with ~60 health

6. Crocomire and his items; I'm fairly sure it's best to go here in a non-TAS, as this gives me enough power bombs for Draygon, nabs me an extra etank, and lets me do the Mount Doom room without going insane. Save at the station just beside the Norfair elevator.

7. Go up and grab the two Power Bomb packs in red brinstar (I'll put this in segment 2 if I can ever get that jump right), then enter Maridia via gravity jump. Save in snail room. I'm not sure whether I should take the supers in the Mount Doom room or not; they waste nearly a minute, but they would make Draygon MUCH easier and lighten the pressure slightly in Lower Norfair.

8. Go to Draygon. Nothing special here; kill Botwoon with charged shots and maybe a wave shield if I can get the timing down.

9. Fight Draygon, using charged shots against swoops and missiles for the gunk. If I collect all ten of the pre-Norfair missiles, including the one near the Red Brinstar powerbombs, I can reach this point with between 15 and 21 missile packs, depending on how far out of my way I go in upper norfair. Assuming I don't get the extra Supers, I'll have to refill on the gunk and just hope; I estimate I'll need about 45-50 missiles for the fight. Add ten more for the crystal flash, ten more for killing the turrets, and five for opening the save room before draygon, and I'm looking at some very restricted ammo, especially given my need for Supers. At the fight, I could have almost full missiles. However, between Kraid and this segment (I assume minikraid can fill me up to full supers), I'll use nine supers, counting the doors before draygon. Luck would be very much needed if I only had two super missiles packs. Advice on which enemies drop supers consistently and the like would be very much appreciated. Oh, and save in the room I saved in last.

10. Return to the snail super room and take the far sandfall, nabbing a reserve tank on the way. Go up the maridian tube, grab plasma beam, then go to wrecked ship and kill phantoon. I'm currently testing to see if there's any way to 1-round him with the plasma beam, as that would just be way too cool on a console run.

EDIT: Ack, almost forgot to mention. I'm still working on strategies for finishing draygon that don't feature me shooting downward for six solid minutes waiting for a lucky hit. Ideas for this would be very welcome.

EDIT2: Just did some math and testing, and no luck on the 1-round kill. I can, however, pull off a snazzy-looking and very easy 2-rounder.

Tonski

2007-06-10 02:22:12 pm

So you're gonna fight Spore Spawn although it's not necessary?

And your route doesn't involve fighting Ridley?

ducknerd

2007-06-10 02:54:17 pm

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As I said at the top, this is a partial route. I'm still working on optimizing the last segments; specifically, seeing how few tanks I can get away with in Lower Norfair. Yes, I'm going to fight Ridley laugh new

The Spore Spawn fight is so I can have enough super missiles at Draygon for a crystal flash (required to beat him without gravity suit). I'm almost certain it's quicker than either of the Maridian supers, especially considering I'll have my first super missile pack by the time I fight it.

Lance Uppercut

2007-06-10 03:03:09 pm

ducknerd, you dont need to fight Spore Spawn for those supers, they can be obtained if you only have collected one pack of supers already, that is all it takes. If you dont know how to do it, I can teach you the way to get them first try.

Other than that... this run seems intriguing. Maybe I will try to make a test run myself if I have some free time next week. Sounds fun and awesome. First I thought about RBO but suitless does not automatically mean that Wink

072

2007-06-10 03:17:47 pm

coral to complement blue

Quote:

If you dont know how to do it, I can teach you the way to get them first try.

Can you tell me? I never really understood it very well. I saw vids of it being done, but when I try it, the Super dissapears when it goes off screen, as it should.

Lance Uppercut

2007-06-10 03:41:45 pm

Allright, I can show and tell it here very briefly. It really needs no tricks or anything.

Kej used this in his april fool / bossless run, so it was obvious it works well without power bomb explosions or anything. (also in the NTSC)

Picture attached. Just stand on the right point, jump straight upwards and shoot in the hole (of course, clear the blocks first with PB or regular bombs).
Samus´ toes are a great way to measure the distance along with that little obstacle right in front of her (on the tip of her toes). The rest is pure trial and error. You will hear when the block is destroyed. The right area is pretty small so it might take some time to get it right. It is not enough if you are "close".

I have some issues with my emulators / roms right now so I wont whip up an smv, but I am sure you will get it right with these.

attachment:

SS supers.png

ducknerd

2007-06-10 04:18:46 pm

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Wow, that's a really nice trick, Lance. I can get it pretty consistently now. I'm pretty sure Samus' sprite has to be pixel-perfect, but that plant makes it easy.

072

2007-06-10 04:58:52 pm

coral to complement blue

Any idea why that works? 0_o

Cpadolf

2007-06-11 02:46:07 am

Almost happy

It works becuse it's totaly ilogical and cooooorazzy laugh new

JaggerG

2007-06-11 03:00:36 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

My first thought had been a magic fairy on the left edge of the screen.

ducknerd

2007-06-11 11:02:45 am

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Okay, I've had some other thoughts on Draygon. I already have to get grabbed by him for both the flash suit (1-shot shinespark gotten by being grabbed while crystal flashing) and the end (I currently have to defeat Draygon while at the top of the room), so why not attempt a grapple kill? I've tested things, and partially killing him with grapple does not make him drop you. This could almost make the Draygon fight a very quick descent and ascent. Unfortunately, falling down from the flash suit temporarily messes with Samus' physics, so I can't just turn around as I fall and finish him with a missile. I would still have to snipe at him for several minutes from above. Killing him with beam shields/charged shots is not viable; he seems to be completely invincible while carrying you.

However, I remember some post at tasvideos for Saturn's RBO TAS that suggested getting stuck in the door of the room outside Draygon and xray climbing up. I have no idea if this solution would work; I've never successfully gotten stuck in a door, and consequently have no idea how fast xray climbing is. It would let me avoid the whole nightmare of trying to get a lucky shot, though, which is always good.

Okay, I've had some other thoughts on Draygon. I already have to get grabbed by him for both the flash suit (1-shot shinespark gotten by being grabbed while crystal flashing) and the end (I currently have to defeat Draygon while at the top of the room), so why not attempt a grapple kill? I've tested things, and partially killing him with grapple does not make him drop you. This could almost make the Draygon fight a very quick descent and ascent. Unfortunately, falling down from the flash suit temporarily messes with Samus' physics, so I can't just turn around as I fall and finish him with a missile. I would still have to snipe at him for several minutes from above. Killing him with beam shields/charged shots is not viable; he seems to be completely invincible while carrying you.

However, I remember some post at tasvideos for Saturn's RBO TAS that suggested getting stuck in the door of the room outside Draygon and xray climbing up. I have no idea if this solution would work; I've never successfully gotten stuck in a door, and consequently have no idea how fast xray climbing is. It would let me avoid the whole nightmare of trying to get a lucky shot, though, which is always good.

Tonski

2007-06-11 04:13:25 pm

=)

Lance Uppercut

2007-06-11 07:03:01 pm

Tonski, that clip is from catnaps unfinished RBO run(suitless_x-ray) from which I noticed the whole issue of catnap skipping CF in that part and brought it up in the RBO thread. That is the origin of it all. Japanese players have some neat ideas from time to time and that was the major one when thinking about speedrunning (yeah, Saturn found out that one all by himself, but I think catnap was the first one). Kejardons glitchrun showed that there is no need for PBs for that point.

ducknerd, I dont understand your fear of shooting downwards from the ledge. If you can kill Draygon with one shot, it should not take longer than a minute or two to accomplish. You can even try to time your shots to have more probability to succeed. I tested it some and it was no big deal.

Last night I made a test run of the suitless run and I was pretty happy with it. I even recorded it but unfortunately the smv desynched right after wave beam. (first time I used "some" good checksum rom, possibly the last one too :) ) I wanted to give you some reference material and ideas of routes and cool tricks that could be exploited. If you want to hear some ideas, just ask and I will tell you.

I finished my suitless test run with in-game time 1:22 and 61% collected items. I used save states in the most critical points, such as Draygon fight, which was my first time ever to perform that glitch. Otherwise I tried to play as naturally as possible, meaning that I tried what it would feel like to play this kind of run on a console.

Maridia and Lower Norfair were not that bad, thanks to SMI and Saturn :D

Tonski, that clip is from catnaps unfinished RBO run(suitless_x-ray) from which I noticed the whole issue of catnap skipping CF in that part and brought it up in the RBO thread. That is the origin of it all. Japanese players have some neat ideas from time to time and that was the major one when thinking about speedrunning (yeah, Saturn found out that one all by himself, but I think catnap was the first one). Kejardons glitchrun showed that there is no need for PBs for that point.

ducknerd, I dont understand your fear of shooting downwards from the ledge. If you can kill Draygon with one shot, it should not take longer than a minute or two to accomplish. You can even try to time your shots to have more probability to succeed. I tested it some and it was no big deal.

Last night I made a test run of the suitless run and I was pretty happy with it. I even recorded it but unfortunately the smv desynched right after wave beam. (first time I used "some" good checksum rom, possibly the last one too  :) ) I wanted to give you some reference material and ideas of routes and cool tricks that could be exploited. If you want to hear some ideas, just ask and I will tell you.

I finished my suitless test run with in-game time 1:22 and 61% collected items. I used save states in the most critical points, such as Draygon fight, which was my first time ever to perform that glitch. Otherwise I tried to play as naturally as possible, meaning that I tried what it would feel like to play this kind of run on a console.

Maridia and Lower Norfair were not that bad, thanks to SMI and Saturn   :D

ducknerd

2007-06-11 07:10:55 pm

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Yeek, my tests came in at about 1:30. I might just leave this run to you! I am rather curious how you can time the ledge kill well; I just shoot a constant stream of charged shots diagonally down.

Lance Uppercut

2007-06-11 08:00:26 pm

I think the shots can be timed pretty fine when you figure out the pattern and timing of Draygons movements. You can see where Draygon is moving for a second even if you are up on the ledge. I might test it if I have some time. I am pretty sure it can be done with some precision even without any save states.

I am quoting myself: ( grin new

)

Quote:

I tried to have a low amount of save states but the Draygon fight was my first time doing that glitch so it took me many many tries to succeed. I am quite surprised it turned out alright in the end. That fight has been my worst fear all this time and now it is conquered.

Leave this run to me? =) I dont know what you had in mind, but I will most definitely not fight that D-monster without save states. Maybe if I practice that glitch enough, but that will be somewhere in the future perhaps.

I did not think of any specific route for my run, I just proceeded with intuition. A couple of facts about my test run:
- first energy tank from (blue) Brinstar instead of Crateria (helps with first heated rooms btw)
- SS super missiles with the tech I posted a picture of earlier
- I am not sure if I did it here, but going back through green Brinstar wave beam gate without wave beam
- Kraid quick kill of course, quick exit was so nice, who needs Varia anyway
- Wrecked ship break-in Red Scarlet style, WS before Maridia, Phantoon 3-round (would have used the "back door" to enter Maridia if that were possible, although it is likely to be much slower when I think about it now), also it was nice to shinespark the other way for a change
- Grapple beam in Maridia is a blessing, as well as ice beam. Obtained those super missiles on the left of the big room and continued climbing straight from there.
- I got the screw attack, even killed GT for more supers, filled supers and PBs before pillar room
- Pillar shine, kago room speedmockball
- Ridley got owned with plasma and plenty of (30) supers, had many tanks of energy left at the end of the fight.
- Draygon was interesting. I am thinking of possibility to spark to the ledge and get another spark to exit that area, but it requires some testing, it did not work out yet.
- ...And so forth...

Wow, got carried away again. I think this run can be narrowed down to some 1:10 or even less, just have to collect less items and be more straightforward.

I think the shots can be timed pretty fine when you figure out the pattern and timing of Draygons movements. You can see where Draygon is moving for a second even if you are up on the ledge. I might test it if I have some time. I am pretty sure it can be done with some precision even without any save states.

I am quoting myself:   ( :grinnew: )
[quote]I tried to have a low amount of save states but the Draygon fight was my first time doing that glitch so it took me many many tries to succeed. I am quite surprised it turned out alright in the end. That fight has been my worst fear all this time and now it is conquered.[/quote]

Leave this run to me?  =)  I dont know what you had in mind, but I will most definitely not fight that D-monster without save states. Maybe if I practice that glitch enough, but that will be somewhere in the future perhaps.

I did not think of any specific route for my run, I just proceeded with intuition. A couple of facts about my test run:
- first energy tank from (blue) Brinstar instead of Crateria (helps with first heated rooms btw)
- SS super missiles with the tech I posted a picture of earlier
- I am not sure if I did it here, but going back through green Brinstar wave beam gate without wave beam
- Kraid quick kill of course, quick exit was so nice, who needs Varia anyway
- Wrecked ship break-in Red Scarlet style, WS before Maridia, Phantoon 3-round (would have used the "back door" to enter Maridia if that were possible, although it is likely to be much slower when I think about it now), also it was nice to shinespark the other way for a change
- Grapple beam in Maridia is a blessing, as well as ice beam. Obtained those super missiles on the left of the big room and continued climbing straight from there.
- I got the screw attack, even killed GT for more supers, filled supers and PBs before pillar room
- Pillar shine, kago room speedmockball
- Ridley got owned with plasma and plenty of (30) supers, had many tanks of energy left at the end of the fight.
- Draygon was interesting. I am thinking of possibility to spark to the ledge and get another spark to exit that area, but it requires some testing, it did not work out yet.
- ...And so forth...

Wow, got carried away again. I think this run can be narrowed down to some 1:10 or even less, just have to collect less items and be more straightforward.

ducknerd

2007-06-11 08:49:07 pm

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I too am using the Blue Brinstar energy tank. Keep in mind that you can get it without bombs; just go to Mother Brain's old room to spawn the enemies, then damage-boost off the yellow flier. It takes some practice, but it looks sweet when you get it the first try.

As for route, I'm stuck between two potential paths. Here they are.

1. Normal run until Red Brinstar, just get the extra etank and super pack, then go up the shaft for two power bomb packs, head down and kill Kraid, do the upper norfair run (w/ Crocomire), enter maridia via the noob tube, kill Draygon, return to the snail room and take the sand pits down to ride the transport tube up, enter Wrecked Ship from the wrong side, do the brinstar/crateria cleanup skipping the craterian supers, reenter red brinstar via the non-elevator route, run lower norfair, finish.

2. Normal run until Red Brinstar, go up and do all of the wrecked ship low-% style, go down and do kraid and upper norfair as above, do maridia but exit via the Red Brinstar shortcut, do the cleanup STARTING with the craterian super pack, finish the game as above.

Route two saves some time in terms of having slightly less backtracking with the WS and cleanup, but would lose a LOT of time in maridia going from the plasma beam to the brinstar exit. Actually, looking at the two now, I'm pretty sure 1 is faster. Still, food for thought.

I too am using the Blue Brinstar energy tank. Keep in mind that you can get it without bombs; just go to Mother Brain's old room to spawn the enemies, then damage-boost off the yellow flier. It takes some practice, but it looks sweet when you get it the first try.

As for route, I'm stuck between two potential paths. Here they are.

1. Normal run until Red Brinstar, just get the extra etank and super pack, then go up the shaft for two power bomb packs, head down and kill Kraid, do the upper norfair run (w/ Crocomire), enter maridia via the noob tube, kill Draygon, return to the snail room and take the sand pits down to ride the transport tube up, enter Wrecked Ship from the wrong side, do the brinstar/crateria cleanup skipping the craterian supers, reenter red brinstar via the non-elevator route, run lower norfair, finish.

2. Normal run until Red Brinstar, go up and do all of the wrecked ship low-% style, go down and do kraid and upper norfair as above, do maridia but exit via the Red Brinstar shortcut, do the cleanup STARTING with the craterian super pack, finish the game as above.

Route two saves some time in terms of having slightly less backtracking with the WS and cleanup, but would lose a LOT of time in maridia going from the plasma beam to the brinstar exit. Actually, looking at the two now, I'm pretty sure 1 is faster. Still, food for thought.

Saturn

2007-06-12 04:37:48 am

Quote from Tonski:

=)

This is actually a direct rip of my RBO run (see video description).
And yeah, we discovered it both by our own. I did around March 2006, but catnap probably in 2005 already. Maybe he can clarify.

The idea of a Suitless run is great. I too will try a unassisted/skillbased one, just for interest since I never did one before, using as few segments as possible, only by using the in-game save stations and thus multiple smvs to make it as close as possible to console conditions. 1:20-1:30 for a suitless run seems very good to me. I will record my version of it as well in the next days and share with you. I highly recommend you to record your runs too, as it would be very interesting to watch and compare between our routes/tricks.

Regarding route, ducknerds early Maridia and backwards WS seems to be a pretty good one. However I'm not sure if getting Plasma is necessary in such a run at all. You collect as many Supers as possible and thus you can kill Ridley and Mother Brain without even the need to use Charge Beam, and that most likely same quick or even quicker. But Plasma will be VERY useful in LN to "pass" through strong enemies in your way without taking damage, so it might still be worth the delay.

[quote="Tonski"][url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=JUeQ4ibkUtI]http://youtube.com/watch?v=JUeQ4ibkUtI[/url]
=)[/quote]
This is actually a direct rip of my RBO run (see video description).
And yeah, we discovered it both by our own. I did around March 2006, but catnap probably in 2005 already. Maybe he can clarify.

The idea of a Suitless run is great. I too will try a unassisted/skillbased one, just for interest since I never did one before, using as few segments as possible, only by using the in-game save stations and thus multiple smvs to make it as close as possible to console conditions. 1:20-1:30 for a suitless run seems very good to me. I will record my version of it as well in the next days and share with you. I highly recommend you to record your runs too, as it would be very interesting to watch and compare between our routes/tricks.

Regarding route, ducknerds early Maridia and backwards WS seems to be a pretty good one. However I'm not sure if getting Plasma is necessary in such a run at all. You collect as many Supers as possible and thus you can kill Ridley and Mother Brain without even the need to use Charge Beam, and that most likely same quick or even quicker. But Plasma will be VERY useful in LN to "pass" through strong enemies in your way without taking damage, so it might still be worth the delay.

ducknerd

2007-06-12 12:54:54 pm

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Considering skipping plasma is a good point, but I think it's a fairly important item, at least for route 1. In route 1, not only is it right along the way, but it allows for: easy phantoon 2-round kill, quick mother brain kill (does ~as much damage per second as a series of super missiles), and a much, much easier lower norfair run. That run, now that I think of it, might not be entirely optimal.

My current path through lower norfair includes getting the screw attack (ridley is just too hard without it) but not the gold torizo supers. I would be entering lower norfair with 30 super missiles (35 if I take the time to boost up, then fall back down in the long craterian shaft). I currently do 3 crystal flashes in the run. One after exiting the elevator, one just before ridley, and one during the norfair escape. This, along with seven more supers for the Teenage Mutant Ninja space pirates (counting the door before them) means I'll already have to be hoping for good drops, which is not a good thing in a place as dangerous as LN. I think I'm looking at a ridley fight with just charged plasma shots.

But anyway, I digressed massively. In route 2, I would have a much quicker path without plasma. However, boss fights would be much harder (and thus slower). Phantoon would actually be hard, gold torizo would no longer be a viable option, and ridley... well, I would have the extra 5 supers, but after doing double damage for a few seconds, I would be down to missiles, which is not where I want to be when I can't massively abuse savestates laugh new

. Oh, and regarding mother brain. She has 18000 hp and no invulnerabilities. That means 60 supers to kill her, which is technically more than there are in the game.

Considering skipping plasma is a good point, but I think it's a fairly important item, at least for route 1. In route 1, not only is it right along the way, but it allows for: easy phantoon 2-round kill, quick mother brain kill (does ~as much damage per second as a series of super missiles), and a much, much easier lower norfair run. That run, now that I think of it, might not be entirely optimal.

My current path through lower norfair includes getting the screw attack (ridley is just too hard without it) but not the gold torizo supers. I would be entering lower norfair with 30 super missiles (35 if I take the time to boost up, then fall back down in the long craterian shaft). I currently do 3 crystal flashes in the run. One after exiting the elevator, one just before ridley, and one during the norfair escape. This, along with seven more supers for the Teenage Mutant Ninja space pirates (counting the door before them) means I'll already have to be hoping for good drops, which is not a good thing in a place as dangerous as LN. I think I'm looking at a ridley fight with just charged plasma shots.

But anyway, I digressed massively. In route 2, I would have a much quicker path without plasma. However, boss fights would be much harder (and thus slower). Phantoon would actually be hard, gold torizo would no longer be a viable option, and ridley... well, I would have the extra 5 supers, but after doing double damage for a few seconds, I would be down to missiles, which is not where I want to be when I can't massively abuse savestates :laugh: . Oh, and regarding mother brain. She has 18000 hp and no invulnerabilities. That means 60 supers to kill her, which is technically more than there are in the game.

Saturn

2007-06-12 02:37:13 pm

Yeah, I'm aware that MB can't be killed with Supers only. But you will have more than enough Missiles for the rest anyway. It would be slightly slower than Plasma, but not as much that I see a problem there. I guess Ridley will be the most critical part if skipping Plasma. But since Supers do double damage, it shouldn't be that hard if having enough of them, even with a CF.

The downside of backward WS is that cleaning up Brinstar and Crateria won't be "on the way" anymore. Also early Draygon will be pretty hard because of the lack of items, which wil definitely increase the chances to die. Since I aim for as few segments as possible, I will try to get items as early as possible if they are not too far away. Let's see what time I can get with the different route.

ducknerd

2007-06-12 03:13:48 pm

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Unless I can escape from lower norfair without crystal flashing (which I don't think is possible), my super missile supply would be extremely limited against ridley. I don't think route 2 is going to be faster, but I am notorious for being wrong about these, so I wholeheartedly support your testing.

Here's my first segment of route 1. Yes, there are over a dozen small mistakes (such as in any room I fall through Embarassed

) but I get all the tricks nicely and my torizo fight is just about perfect. I did use one rerecord because I screwed up the skip spore spawn glitch (it took me about 30 seconds to remember where to bomb laugh new

).

EDIT: segment 2 done as well! Excuse my follies with the spikes.

EDIT2: erk, just realized segment 2 desynchs about 2/3 of the way through. No matter; it was just high jump boots and saving.

EDIT3: GAHH! Never mind. I forgot my own route. It would be a huge time-waster now to go back up the Brinstar shaft for Power Bombs.

attachments:

suitless seg 1.smv

suitless seg 2.smv

ducknerd

2007-06-13 03:00:30 pm

Eschews avatars

Double post, but this is a somewhat different and more important subject.

I sadly can't prove it (although there's no motive for me to lie), but I just finished my test run using Route 1 and got a time of 1:03. I used savestates on some of the longer segments, but everything was very doable on console, I just used the states to spend less time polishing each segment (this was, after all, just testing). Like I said, I can't prove anything because I didn't record it (too many desyncs and file management).

I definitely think this could be pushed to sub-hour. A lot of my play was fairly sloppy (see the above smvs), I took a too-long route to power bombs as mentioned above (45 seconds lost easily), and since I used grapple beam on Draygon, the early mass missile collection is unnecessary. Oh, and I tested; it's a fairly short 1:03, about 1:03:15.

This, of course, does not mean it is the shortest route.

I'll post a full list of my route and tricks when I get the time.

Lance Uppercut

2007-06-13 04:07:46 pm

This sounds great. I have estimated the time all wrong. I forgot that in my 1:22 test run I collected lots of supers and power bombs, screw attack and some other very unnecessary stuff, I even fought Golden Torizo for fun, that alone wastes a couple of minutes (with energy and ammo refilling). Plasma beam makes supers quite non-vital for survival in LN. I mean that less is enough. I am all for plasma beam and less supers. Screw attack is not necessary either, because Ridley can be fought with the right strategy. If someone wants to try that, I suggest saving in the station before entering his lair.

Using grapple against Draygon sounds clever, that is efficient and saves ammo, but it might be hard to estimate the damage done. I cant imagine anyone fighting D suitless and escaping that area successfully single-segmented (or: without save states). Someone please prove me wrong and show that it is possible. Well, I know it is possible, but I think it is incredibly hard.

Cant wait for your route, ducknerd. Sub-hour is a sure thing in the future. Of course I am anxious to see Saturns route as well, because these suggestions might form a mighty hybrid together. Wink

This sounds great. I have estimated the time all wrong. I forgot that in my 1:22 test run I collected lots of supers and power bombs, screw attack and some other very unnecessary stuff, I even fought Golden Torizo for fun, that alone wastes a couple of minutes (with energy and ammo refilling). Plasma beam makes supers quite non-vital for survival in LN. I mean that less is enough. I am all for plasma beam and less supers. Screw attack is not necessary either, because Ridley can be fought with the right strategy. If someone wants to try that, I suggest saving in the station before entering his lair.

Using grapple against Draygon sounds clever, that is efficient and saves ammo, but it might be hard to estimate the damage done. I cant imagine anyone fighting D suitless and escaping that area successfully single-segmented (or: without save states). Someone please prove me wrong and show that it is possible. Well, I know it is possible, but I think it is incredibly hard.

Cant wait for your route, ducknerd. Sub-hour is a sure thing in the future. Of course I am anxious to see Saturns route as well, because these suggestions might form a mighty hybrid together.  :wink:

Saturn

2007-06-13 05:56:26 pm

Ducknerd, your smvs desync on my side. Do you know on which emulator you did record it and especially with which sync settings enabled?

After thinking about early Maridia and Plasma one more time, I think it's definitely worth to go for it if not doing WS first. 1:03 is extremely good, but doing the diagonal bomb jump over the lake might be a pain to perform. Because of the too high risk to screw up there, I won't try this route and go for early Plasma instead.

Regarding Draygon, i fear it's indeed pretty impossible for average player like us to do this part without savestates. Thats why I will do it with the X-Ray climb instead. The fight itself will be piece of cake that way, but climbing the wall up will be very hard, especially in areas where you can't see samus and thus control the correct climb moves. If you screw up by pressing the X-Raying button too long or the turn around in the wrong time, you get stuck and won't be able to continue the climb. Thats why I will probably be forced to use some savestates for this climb alone. Everything else will will be done without them, obviously.

Ducknerd, your smvs desync on my side. Do you know on which emulator you did record it and especially with which sync settings enabled?

After thinking about early Maridia and Plasma one more time, I think it's definitely worth to go for it if not doing WS first. 1:03 is extremely good, but doing the diagonal bomb jump over the lake might be a pain to perform. Because of the too high risk to screw up there, I won't try this route and go for early Plasma instead.

Regarding Draygon, i fear it's indeed pretty impossible for average player like us to do this part without savestates. Thats why I will do it with the X-Ray climb instead. The fight itself will be piece of cake that way, but climbing the wall up will be very hard, especially in areas where you can't see samus and thus control the correct climb moves. If you screw up by pressing the X-Raying button too long or the turn around in the wrong time, you get stuck and won't be able to continue the climb. Thats why I will probably be forced to use some savestates for this climb alone. Everything else will will be done without them, obviously.

ducknerd

2007-06-13 07:05:12 pm

Eschews avatars

I'm using the latest version of snes9x, but Final, not any of the TAS improvements (Which I presume you are using). Also, the second one desynced on mine as well. Maybe lag during the Kraid battle...?

Lance: I have fine-tuned the Draygon battle to the point that it's a cinch. The problem is not of skill but of patience. When I was making the smv below for you guys, I realized that I had gotten very very lucky in my test run; I got a kill I liked on attempt six or so. He only does his ideal attack pattern (swoop, swoop, gunk) about a quarter of the time, and hits Samus few enough times (this might be a good reason to actually do a later maridia, so you can have more etanks for the fight) about a third of the time. I finished this movie as is just because it's too small a chance to get a quick blind shot, but the end probablity is something like 1/50 to kill Draygon within a minute of being dropped on the ledge.

The smv shows my full Draygon strategy, although some of it is invisible. There are two important facts which are not visible. First, the almost-kill with the grapple beam requires that you release after losing about 230 energy. Second, Draygon releases you after exactly 60 d-pad presses, and the last one must be "left". The movie ends with five minutes of "Samus shooting down", which gets kind of surreal after the first three minutes of the same thing happening over and over.

So in short it is doable on console, just inhumanly tedious (you'd probably want to reset after about 100 missed shots). X-ray climbing is certainly a possibility (I finally got it to work, although not very well), but it would be hard and VERY slow. It might actually be faster to just get lucky on shot #60 or so like I did on my test run.

Also, random thought on the early-plasma route. I earlier dismissed the normal post-Draygon route (go through the gray door and through the rooms with the cactus enemies) as impossible, but I wonder if you could x-ray climb up the wall and out of the water? That would save upwards of two minutes, and you don't really collect any items the other way.

Yet another addendum: (All my posts in this topic are really long and disjointed for some reason!) I'm fairly certain Ridley is impossible on console without screw attack, as defeating him relies on you never getting hit. Also, getting screw attack lets you refill on supers (which ARE necessary for the 3 crystal flashes!) from the red bugs. If you have a strategy for Ridley that lets you avoid those infuriating charge attacks without screw attack, please do tell me.

I'm using the latest version of snes9x, but Final, not any of the TAS improvements (Which I presume you are using). Also, the second one desynced on mine as well. Maybe lag during the Kraid battle...?

Lance: I have fine-tuned the Draygon battle to the point that it's a cinch. The problem is not of skill but of patience. When I was making the smv below for you guys, I realized that I had gotten very very lucky in my test run; I got a kill I liked on attempt six or so. He only does his ideal attack pattern (swoop, swoop, gunk) about a quarter of the time, and hits Samus few enough times (this might be a good reason to actually do a later maridia, so you can have more etanks for the fight) about a third of the time. I finished this movie as is just because it's too small a chance to get a quick blind shot, but the end probablity is something like 1/50 to kill Draygon within a minute of being dropped on the ledge.

The smv shows my full Draygon strategy, although some of it is invisible. There are two important facts which are not visible. First, the almost-kill with the grapple beam requires that you release after losing about 230 energy. Second, Draygon releases you after exactly 60 d-pad presses, and the last one must be "left". The movie ends with five minutes of "Samus shooting down", which gets kind of surreal after the first three minutes of the same thing happening over and over.

So in short it is doable on console, just inhumanly tedious (you'd probably want to reset after about 100 missed shots). X-ray climbing is certainly a possibility (I finally got it to work, although not very well), but it would be hard and VERY slow. It might actually be faster to just get lucky on shot #60 or so like I did on my test run.

Also, random thought on the early-plasma route. I earlier dismissed the normal post-Draygon route (go through the gray door and through the rooms with the cactus enemies) as impossible, but I wonder if you could x-ray climb up the wall and out of the water? That would save upwards of two minutes, and you don't really collect any items the other way.

Yet another addendum: (All my posts in this topic are really long and disjointed for some reason!) I'm fairly certain Ridley is impossible on console without screw attack, as defeating him relies on you never getting hit. Also, getting screw attack lets you refill on supers (which ARE necessary for the 3 crystal flashes!) from the red bugs. If you have a strategy for Ridley that lets you avoid those infuriating charge attacks without screw attack, please do tell me.

attachment:

draygon.smv

Saturn

2007-06-14 04:10:09 am

ducknerd, I highly recommend to not use the official v1.43 because it has the worst recording timing of all the recent Snes9x versions, which as you see even desyncs on the same emulator when playing back. Try the most stable and tested Snes9x v1.43 improvement9 instead, a modification of the official version to make movie recording absolutely easy and perfect:

http://www.filespace.org/nitsuja/snes9xw-improvement9.zip

Very important is to use the "WIP1 timing" and "fake mute desync workaround" when recording a movie to completely erase all desync possibilities. With this settings I never had any desyncs in Super Metroid during 2 years of countless recordings.

To your draygon style, thats exactly why I would prefer the X-Ray climb there. It would be at least 3 times faster and fully controlable without any need of luck.

Your suggestion on climbing the cacti room for Plasma sounds very good. Unfortunately, since there are no grapple blocks at the top, and since you can't make a spin jump coming out of the wall to make the walljump over it, I doubt it will ever be possible.

And now for the news: I just finished my first suitless run ever in only 6 segments! Got a time of 1:14, but I think I could skip even more items to easily cut it down to 1:10 or even more.

This run was played completely unassisted except of the 3rd segment, for which I had to make 5 rerecords in order to perform a flawless X-Ray climb. The RBO TASing and SM Impossible testing experience definitely paid out in this run. :)

Note that it was recorded on the latest version, the official Snes9x v1.51, which is available here: http://snes9x.ipherswipsite.com/
and it works well without desyncs. This version is a good alternative to the stable 1.43 improvement9 and definitely better than 1.43 official. However it uses a yet again different timing, which can't be played back by 1.43 and vice versa.

If you have any major improvement suggestions, I would appreciate them. Maybe I will do a 2nd version of this run in the future someday.

Enjoy!

ducknerd, I highly recommend to not use the official v1.43 because it has the worst recording timing of all the recent Snes9x versions, which as you see even desyncs on the same emulator when playing back. Try the most stable and tested Snes9x v1.43 improvement9 instead, a modification of the official version to make movie recording absolutely easy and perfect:

http://www.filespace.org/nitsuja/snes9xw-improvement9.zip

Very important is to use the "WIP1 timing" and "fake mute desync workaround" when recording a movie to completely erase all desync possibilities. With this settings I never had any desyncs in Super Metroid during 2 years of countless recordings.

To your draygon style, thats exactly why I would prefer the X-Ray climb there. It would be at least 3 times faster and fully controlable without any need of luck.

Your suggestion on climbing the cacti room for Plasma sounds very good. Unfortunately, since there are no grapple blocks at the top, and since you can't make a spin jump coming out of the wall to make the walljump over it, I doubt it will ever be possible.

And now for the news: I just finished my first suitless run ever in only 6 segments! Got a time of 1:14, but I think I could skip even more items to easily cut it down to 1:10 or even more.

This run was played completely unassisted except of the 3rd segment, for which I had to make 5 rerecords in order to perform a flawless X-Ray climb. The RBO TASing and SM Impossible testing experience definitely paid out in this run. :)

Note that it was recorded on the latest version, the official Snes9x v1.51, which is available here: http://snes9x.ipherswipsite.com/
and it works well without desyncs. This version is a good alternative to the stable 1.43 improvement9 and definitely better than 1.43 official. However it uses a yet again different timing, which can't be played back by 1.43 and vice versa.

If you have any major improvement suggestions, I would appreciate them. Maybe I will do a 2nd version of this run in the future someday.

Enjoy!

attachment:

Saturn - SM suitless v1 - 1.14.zip