The problem with TAS, and a solution

2006-05-28 06:51:03 pm

Hey, I just thought about some crazy idea. No, I didn't find the name Wii for revo.

How about showing a video of real life before the movie, instead of words, showing a TASer on his (her) computer, playing slowdown mario on NES (or the game about to be played), or using savestates, or pausing the game etc... ?

This is just very sketchy, but it is possible to do such a thing. What do you think?

EDIT : Page break inauguration.

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-28 06:54:15 pm

Cook of the Sea

Would have to be too long for it to be apparent what was going on to more people than the words already provide.

MonsterERB

2006-05-28 06:56:37 pm

Quote from nate:

...at least deceptive tas...

Well, I think that's really a key point to be hammered home. In my opinion, there is nothing inherently wrong with a tool-assisted speedrun/borged run/quarked run/what-have-you. Occasionally a novice speedrun viewer will mistake a TAS for a console speedrun, which is frustrating and unfortunate. But, the question is: was the publisher of the TAS video INTENTIONALLY trying to pass off their work as a console run? If so, then they deserve to be blasted with both barrels.
...
I think that's a very rare beast, though. I think the vast majority of TAS authors want people to know how their videos were made, and the largest TAS community out there has decided that "Tool Assisted Speedrun" is the best way to describe their videos, and would genuinely want to clear up people's misunderstandings about TAS.
...
I will say, though, that I get queasy whenever I see a TAS author (or TAS fan) say something like this: "Wow, did you see JXQ's 100% SM run? He finished in 0:39. That beats Scarlet's record by 16 minutes!!" (Note - just using that run as an example.) Console runs and TAS are utterly, fundamentally different. THEY SHOULD NEVER, EVER, BE COMPARED TO EACH OTHER IN TERMS OF COMPLETION TIME. If I were to say, "wow - did you see s_e's Echoes run? It was 1:43! That beats Sparky by 45 minutes! Unbelievable!!!" - I'd be called a moron, and rightly so. s_e did an any% run, sparky's was a 100% run - the 100% run is inherently slower due to time spent picking up expansions not needed for an any% run. Comparing the completion times for the two makes no sense - they are different kinds of run. Now, feel free to compare the skill with which each run is done; compare the routes and strategies; compare how much skill each runner shows in each segment.
...
Same with TAS and console runs. Comparing the completion times is meaningless. Go ahead and discuss the various insane tricks that a TAS can show, that are impossible on a console. Talk about how perhaps some TAS tricks might be adaptable for console use. Talk about strategies and routes. The more I hear TAS authors and fans comparing completion times for TAS vs console runs, the more nervous I get. Most of them don't do that, or if they do it's just in passing - but a few really seem to hammer home the "OMG the TAS was "x" minutes faster than the record!!" angle. THEY ARE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT WAYS TO PLAY THE GAME. Of course a TAS will end up with a faster clock time - that's not the point. In my opinion, if the TAS community would make a strong effort to discourage those comparisons, much of the tension would disappear.
...
The proper comparison isn't TAS to console - it's TAS to TAS, and console run to console run. Now that JXQ has done 100% SM TAS in 0:39, someone else should be shooting for a TAS in 0:38 or 0:37, and some console runner should be going for 0:54 or 0:53. Those will be much more challenging projects, and more fun to watch. Those runs can be compared to each other, with clock time a reasonable measure of skill.

[quote="nate"]...at least [i]deceptive[/i] tas...[/quote]
Well, I think that's really a key point to be hammered home.  In my opinion, there is nothing inherently wrong with a tool-assisted speedrun/borged run/quarked run/what-have-you.  Occasionally a novice speedrun viewer will mistake a TAS for a console speedrun, which is frustrating and unfortunate.  But, the question is: was the publisher of the TAS video INTENTIONALLY trying to pass off their work as a console run?  If so, then they deserve to be blasted with both barrels.
...
I think that's a very rare beast, though.  I think the vast majority of TAS authors want people to know how their videos were made, and the largest TAS community out there has decided that "Tool Assisted Speedrun" is the best way to describe their videos, and would genuinely want to clear up people's misunderstandings about TAS.
...
I will say, though, that I get queasy whenever I see a TAS author (or TAS fan) say something like this: "Wow, did you see JXQ's 100% SM run?  He finished in 0:39.  That beats Scarlet's record by 16 minutes!!"  (Note - just using that run as an example.)  Console runs and TAS are utterly, fundamentally different.  THEY SHOULD NEVER, [i]EVER[/i], BE COMPARED TO EACH OTHER IN TERMS OF COMPLETION TIME.  If I were to say, "wow - did you see s_e's Echoes run?  It was 1:43!  That beats Sparky by 45 minutes!  Unbelievable!!!" - I'd be called a moron, and rightly so.  s_e did an any% run, sparky's was a 100% run - the 100% run is inherently slower due to time spent picking up expansions not needed for an any% run.  Comparing the completion times for the two makes no sense - they are different kinds of run.  Now, feel free to compare the skill with which each run is done; compare the routes and strategies; compare how much skill each runner shows in each segment.
...
Same with TAS and console runs.  Comparing the completion times is meaningless.  Go ahead and discuss the various insane tricks that a TAS can show, that are impossible on a console.  Talk about how perhaps some TAS tricks might be adaptable for console use.  Talk about strategies and routes.  The more I hear TAS authors and fans comparing completion times for TAS vs console runs, the more nervous I get.  Most of them don't do that, or if they do it's just in passing - but a few really seem to hammer home the "OMG the TAS was "x" minutes faster than the record!!" angle.  THEY ARE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT WAYS TO PLAY THE GAME.  Of course a TAS will end up with a faster clock time - that's not the point.  In my opinion, if the TAS community would make a strong effort to discourage those comparisons, much of the tension would disappear.
...
The proper comparison isn't TAS to console - it's TAS to TAS, and console run to console run.  Now that JXQ has done 100% SM TAS in 0:39, someone else should be shooting for a TAS in 0:38 or 0:37, and some console runner should be going for 0:54 or 0:53.  Those will be much more challenging projects, and more fun to watch.  Those runs can be compared to each other, with clock time a reasonable measure of skill.

Qlex

2006-05-28 07:02:38 pm

To Saber : I'd say that it would have to be longer than words, but not too long, considering that it would be somehow attractive... Let's see : If it were 30 seconds long, what would the viewer do? Close the movie? That's a possibility. But neither can they skip that, nor can they not look at that. After they see the movie, and have more chances to understand...

I think it's worth testing.

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-28 07:23:58 pm

Cook of the Sea

It's not worth forcing someone to sit through a longassed intro.

nate

2006-05-28 08:02:57 pm

qlex, cool idea, but probably not workable in the long run. i think it could be used in the sda knowledge base i'm building though. could do some propaganda-like stuff that would hopefully get copied all over the internet to raise awareness.

monster, hmm, looks like deceive/deception are supposed to be intentional after all:

Quote:

Deceive involves the deliberate misrepresentation of the truth: �We are inclined to believe those whom we do not know, because they have never deceived us� (Samuel Johnson).

so i guess that's not the right word, and "mislead" would probably be better. is there agreement on this? basically i'm not trying to say people are intentionally doing it, just that they are not preventing it, and that is misleading people (compare with negligent homicide a.k.a. involuntarily manslaughter - you didn't kill a person intentionally, but at the end of the day, they're still dead).

Qlex

2006-05-29 01:42:16 pm

About my idea : Saber, you have a good point : "forcing the viewer" is true. But I think we need to force people to see a longlassed intro. It's not really that bad, you know, japaneese animes have a boring intro of around 1 min 30 secs long : I think we can explain TAS within 10 secs, if we record what really explains everything to the mind. If not, well, there is cyborg here that can explain even better.

As I already said, the image in the mind of average viewers is the player playing with her (his) controller, in front of his (her) TV. A video like that clearly breaks that image. I think about Perfect control, a SSBM video that shows some Action Replay run (comparable to TAS, has frame-by-frame processing). Somehow the ending helps understanding more than the introduction.

If you don't want to think more about it, well, it's okay.

trh

2006-05-29 02:17:48 pm

http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload3/difference.gif

:|

Qlex

2006-05-29 02:33:33 pm

Oh yeah sorry, well there is TAS running about SSBM, check out "adventure", here

trh

2006-05-29 02:41:48 pm

Er, to be honest I've only read your first post on this page. Didn't make the GIF in response to your second post. >_>

Qlex

2006-05-29 03:13:49 pm

Oh ok. lol about that movie. Who made it?

Anyway if I can I may record myself TASing, but I don't have a camescope right now. After that we may see about it...

nate

2006-05-29 06:59:06 pm

Hahahahahaha. That was AWESOME. :)

trh

2006-05-30 05:44:20 am

Quote from Qlex:

Oh ok. lol about that movie. Who made it?

That movie? GIF was done by me, clip was from the Sony Press Conference. If that's what you were asking. >_>

Maur

2006-05-30 05:07:07 pm

Quote:

But I think we need to force people to see a longlassed intro.

Disagree. I'd go on, but I'd be repeating myself.

Qlex

2006-05-31 11:25:32 am

Well, if the introduction is more like an attractive opening it may solve the problem somehow. I know it's not possible, like an utopia, but I'll try getting closer and closer to that utopia. I'd manage to make a clear vid well made in around 15 secs, that would be my objective.

nate

2006-05-31 07:29:51 pm

if you can convince them to use it, then by all means go ahead. fifteen seconds is better than the one second they do now that you don't even see if you open it in vlc because it starts too late.

Qlex

2006-06-01 10:35:46 am

made

EDIT : Seeing the recent and fast turn of events right now, I don't think any kind of solution would be completely granted by TASvideos right now, which may explain why a very few TASers said something about that topic. As Bisqwit said, they're not going to whange anything, so please, can anyone think of making an objective movie? If not it's alright.

13M13

2006-06-01 11:06:41 am

l'appel du vide

I, too, see no problem.

Therefore, I don't see much of a reason to change anything.

nate

2006-06-01 11:53:28 am

that is a really bad attitude. if someone made a topic on another forum about how i should change things here, i would seriously consider what they were saying.

JXQ

2006-06-01 12:27:44 pm

I haven't read everything here in detail, so if I'm repeating points, I apologize.

Quote from Nate:

clearly it is the minority community's duty to label their products properly, but because they can't seem to figure out how to do it effectively, and because it's really my problem and not theirs, i am here now trying to tell them how to fix it. it's my problem because it's members of my community (people i lead/am responsible for) who have to do extra work because of the negligence of the TAS community.

Nate, your entire comparison of this to a government almost makes me sick with your arrogance. You are speaking as though you have the resposibility to govern all speedrunning materials on the internet. Yet, you clearly didn't include the idea of TASing when it was introduced, and had no intention of furthering its capabilities of providing entertaining movies - instead, you badmouthed the idea and those who took part in it (just read some of the posts you made in Saturn's RBO thread). Since you weren't part of the growth, it's safe to say that the community which formed, and now operates on its own terms, had nothing to do with you or your effort. Suddenly, you want to jump into this community and say its your "responsibility" to dictate how things are done, after the community built itself without any of your help? It's not your responsibility at all; TASvideos (recent name change) runs just fine without your ideas, and I predict it will continue to do so. All this "extra work" you do is not required of you. Rather, you take it upon yourself to do so much that you overstep boundaries and believe that your way is correct for other organizations. This is intrusive, arrogant, and just rude.

And now for the red button: TASing is becoming the majority, if it is not already, in the videos that watchers prefer (as opposed to who creates the runs). I base this opinion on the ever-growing number of cases where people link to a TAS run and say "this is sick!" when presented with a console run of the same game, and then are eventually given explanation of the true nature of the video. Google pages are not reliable sources. This is also why I think some who are passionate about console speedrunning are unhappy with the current situation. More and more people like watching a TAS over a console run, even if they don't fully understand it. Note that all of this is my opinion.

Nate, in your first post, you use several footnotes, because the point to be made is better summarized elsewhere (in order to fully explain it without interrupting the content you present). This is similar to the disclaimer given at the beginning of every movie at TASvideos. A small blurb about tool assistance, along with a place to go to learn more. If people choose to ignore it, then what more can we do? Calling them "cheated" doesn't fully explain them any more than tool-assistance because the first thing that will come to many people's minds with the word cheated is "game genie". Now everyone's doing just as much explaining to clear up the idea as before. A solution is to place a footnote (web page) to link to that explains things better in each video. This is already done, so why would TASers choose the term that makes them look like evil people when we aren't trying to hurt anyone and just enjoy providing entertainment? To make YOU happy? Please.

Additionally, no matter how watermarked the runs are, it is trivial to reproduce this videos using the emulator and movie file given on the site, finding the ROM, and exporting to AVI in the same way, completely free of all disclaimers. This will always be a possibility because of the nature of the content.

Quote from Nate:

this is crucial: (Red Scarlet) has to explain to them what tas is even though they have already seen the video labeled as such. the tas community and their label have failed the majority audience

She is willing to stand behind what you do as an admin because she is part of this site. She made this clear in the thread about my Super Metroid 100% TAS. Bisqwit, as the admin of TASvideos, also makes decisions on things at our site, so she should also blindly accept his policies as well. If this includes "having" to explaining things, then so be it. Although - no one HAS to do anything. Anyone who voluntarily takes extra work upon themselves, and THEN complains about it, is immature and crying for attention.

Quote from Nate:

that is a really bad attitude. if someone made a topic on another forum about how i should change things here, i would seriously consider what they were saying.

What makes you think Bisqwit hasn't? We've been subjected to your attempt at controlling the presentation of the TAS community's content several times, and this is not a brand new idea you're presenting here. It was discussed quite fully last time - maybe people just don't see the need to explain to you why they disagree once it hits the second and third time. It could even be argued that you aren't considering what we are saying!

To everyone: please do not respond to me with "Nate is the site's admin, he can do whatever he wants." This argument is simply a way of avoiding the true issue of the discussion and it adds nothing of value to the situation.

I haven't read everything here in detail, so if I'm repeating points, I apologize.

[quote="Nate"]clearly it is the minority community's duty to label their products properly, but because they can't seem to figure out how to do it effectively, and because it's really my problem and not theirs, i am here now trying to tell them how to fix it. it's my problem because it's members of my community (people i lead/am responsible for) who have to do extra work because of the negligence of the TAS community.[/quote]

Nate, your entire comparison of this to a government almost makes me sick with your arrogance.  You are speaking as though you have the resposibility to govern all speedrunning materials on the internet.  Yet, you clearly didn't include the idea of TASing when it was introduced, and had no intention of furthering its capabilities of providing entertaining movies - instead, you badmouthed the idea and those who took part in it (just read some of the posts you made in Saturn's RBO thread).  Since you weren't part of the growth, it's safe to say that the community which formed, and now operates on its own terms, had nothing to do with you or your effort.  Suddenly, you want to jump into this community and say its your "responsibility" to dictate how things are done, after the community built itself without any of your help?  It's not your responsibility at all; TASvideos (recent name change) runs just fine without your ideas, and I predict it will continue to do so.  All this "extra work" you do is not required of you.  Rather, you take it upon yourself to do so much that you overstep boundaries and believe that your way is correct for other organizations.  This is intrusive, arrogant, and just rude.

And now for the red button: [b]TASing is becoming the majority[/b], if it is not already, in the videos that watchers prefer (as opposed to who creates the runs).  I base this opinion on the ever-growing number of cases where people link to a TAS run and say "this is sick!" when presented with a console run of the same game, and then are eventually given explanation of the true nature of the video.  Google pages are not reliable sources.  This is also why I think some who are passionate about console speedrunning are unhappy with the current situation.  More and more people like watching a TAS over a console run, even if they don't fully understand it.  Note that all of this is my opinion.

Nate, in your first post, you use several footnotes, because the point to be made is better summarized elsewhere (in order to fully explain it without interrupting the content you present).  This is similar to the disclaimer given at the beginning of every movie at TASvideos.  A small blurb about tool assistance, along with a place to go to learn more.  If people choose to ignore it, then what more can we do?  Calling them "cheated" doesn't fully explain them any more than tool-assistance because the first thing that will come to many people's minds with the word cheated is "game genie".  Now everyone's doing just as much explaining to clear up the idea as before.  A solution is to place a footnote (web page) to link to that explains things better in each video.  This is already done, so why would TASers choose the term that makes them look like evil people when we aren't trying to hurt anyone and just enjoy providing entertainment?  To make YOU happy?  Please.

Additionally, no matter how watermarked the runs are, it is trivial to reproduce this videos using the emulator and movie file given on the site, finding the ROM, and exporting to AVI in the same way, completely free of all disclaimers.  This will always be a possibility because of the nature of the content.

[quote="Nate"]this is crucial: (Red Scarlet) has to explain to them what tas is even though they have already seen the video labeled as such. the tas community and their label have failed the majority audience[/quote]
She is willing to stand behind what you do as an admin because she is part of this site.  She made this clear in the thread about my Super Metroid 100% TAS.  Bisqwit, as the admin of TASvideos, also makes decisions on things at our site, so she should also blindly accept his policies as well.  If this includes "having" to explaining things, then so be it.  Although - no one HAS to do anything.  Anyone who voluntarily takes extra work upon themselves, and THEN complains about it, is immature and crying for attention.

[quote="Nate"]that is a really bad attitude. if someone made a topic on another forum about how i should change things here, i would seriously consider what they were saying.[/quote]
What makes you think Bisqwit hasn't?  We've been subjected to your attempt at controlling the presentation of the TAS community's content several times, and this is not a brand new idea you're presenting here.  It was discussed quite fully last time - maybe people just don't see the need to explain to you why they disagree once it hits the second and third time.  It could even be argued that you aren't considering what we are saying!

To everyone: please do not respond to me with "Nate is the site's admin, he can do whatever he wants."  This argument is simply a way of avoiding the true issue of the discussion and it adds nothing of value to the situation.

SABERinBLUE

2006-06-01 12:31:09 pm

Cook of the Sea

I am one hundred percent with you on this, JXQ.

13M13

2006-06-01 12:40:18 pm

l'appel du vide

Quote from nate:

that is a really bad attitude. if someone made a topic on another forum about how i should change things here, i would seriously consider what they were saying.

They have.

You just don't like their answer.

Guybrush

2006-06-01 12:54:26 pm

All I can say is: Bravo JXQ!

trh

2006-06-01 01:15:40 pm

I agree with you on most points, but I do believe the speed running community is larger than the TAS community. That is all, not taking sides or anything.

nate

2006-06-01 01:49:13 pm

Quote from JXQ:

I haven't read everything here in detail, so if I'm repeating points, I apologize.

need to read page 7 if nothing else.

Quote from JXQ:

Nate, your entire comparison of this to a government almost makes me sick with your arrogance. You are speaking as though you have the resposibility to govern all speedrunning materials on the internet. Yet, you clearly didn't include the idea of TASing when it was introduced, and had no intention of furthering its capabilities of providing entertaining movies - instead, you badmouthed the idea and those who took part in it (just read some of the posts you made in Saturn's RBO thread). Since you weren't part of the growth, it's safe to say that the community which formed, and now operates on its own terms, had nothing to do with you or your effort. Suddenly, you want to jump into this community and say its your "responsibility" to dictate how things are done, after the community built itself without any of your help? It's not your responsibility at all; TASvideos (recent name change) runs just fine without your ideas, and I predict it will continue to do so. All this "extra work" you do is not required of you. Rather, you take it upon yourself to do so much that you overstep boundaries and believe that your way is correct for other organizations. This is intrusive, arrogant, and just rude.

not ordering so much as asserting and recommending. i agree that in an ideal world, it should not be my responsibility to take care of everyone, but when some people don't do what they should, the other people have a decision: they can either pick up the slack and save the world, or let everyone suffer and be perhaps as guilty as the original shirker. i only have so long to live, and so i intend to live without regret so much as i am capable.

i agree that it was a mistake for me to ignore tas until earlier this year. there is no doubt in my mind now that if i ran everything, the world would be a better place. i guess it was just not clear to me until just recently how it was necessary that i get involved, because i have known of the tas problem for much longer, coming up on two years now. but i ignored people's pleas for help because i believed the people who said that it would go away on its own, or that it would not affect reasonable people, etc. i guess i have a new perspective now on how lawless the internet really is.

Quote from JXQ:

And now for the red button: TASing is becoming the majority, if it is not already, in the videos that watchers prefer (as opposed to who creates the runs). I base this opinion on the ever-growing number of cases where people link to a TAS run and say "this is sick!" when presented with a console run of the same game, and then are eventually given explanation of the true nature of the video. Google pages are not reliable sources. This is also why I think some who are passionate about console speedrunning are unhappy with the current situation. More and more people like watching a TAS over a console run, even if they don't fully understand it. Note that all of this is my opinion.

should tas become the majority then you can come back here and read my first post backwards: if i fail to mark non-tool assisted speed runs as such, then you can feel free to claim i harm the majority (this is why i built the thing around "majority" and "minority", not "speed running" and "tas"). but i think you will find it difficult to convince the majority media, especially in certain parts of the world, that something as intimately involved with piracy as tas will be something they will want to be associated with, much less look like they are promoting. this is especially true as the wii's virtual console approaches and the companies will no doubt adopt a more serious policy regarding piracy (considering they will be losing real revenue now if someone pirates duck hunt or something).

Quote from JXQ:

Nate, in your first post, you use several footnotes, because the point to be made is better summarized elsewhere (in order to fully explain it without interrupting the content you present). This is similar to the disclaimer given at the beginning of every movie at TASvideos. A small blurb about tool assistance, along with a place to go to learn more. If people choose to ignore it, then what more can we do? Calling them "cheated" doesn't fully explain them any more than tool-assistance because the first thing that will come to many people's minds with the word cheated is "game genie". Now everyone's doing just as much explaining to clear up the idea as before. A solution is to place a footnote (web page) to link to that explains things better in each video. This is already done, so why would TASers choose the term that makes them look like evil people when we aren't trying to hurt anyone and just enjoy providing entertainment? To make YOU happy? Please.

my happiness is irrelevant. do you feel no sympathy for your fellow man?

Quote from i:

the situation should be evaluated not by how much has been done, but by whether enough has been done. enough has not been done.

Quote from JXQ:

Additionally, no matter how watermarked the runs are, it is trivial to reproduce this videos using the emulator and movie file given on the site, finding the ROM, and exporting to AVI in the same way, completely free of all disclaimers. This will always be a possibility because of the nature of the content.

i do not expect you to deal with things i am not also capable of dealing with. i expect no more results than i would expect if i were in charge. i also doubt that it can be considered "trivial" to go through those steps to produce a deceptive, unmarked version - certainly i am one of the very few here who are familiar with the entire process. it is absolutely not something that you can do without reading any documentation or how-to material, even if you have some prior knowledge of digital video production. and i think that, again, we have evidence here that you are misinterpreting what i am saying. i am not saying that there is any intent to deceive (which would be required to put in the insane amount of time and effort required to produce unmarked versions of the tases). i am saying that there is deception going on, and those people who are in a position to do something about it are not doing enough about it (things have been done, but they have not been effective, and i claim that the reasons why they have not been effective should be obvious).

Quote from JXQ:

Quote from Nate:

this is crucial: (Red Scarlet) has to explain to them what tas is even though they have already seen the video labeled as such. the tas community and their label have failed the majority audience

She is willing to stand behind what you do as an admin because she is part of this site. She made this clear in the thread about my Super Metroid 100% TAS. Bisqwit, as the admin of TASvideos, also makes decisions on things at our site, so she should also blindly accept his policies as well. If this includes "having" to explaining things, then so be it. Although - no one HAS to do anything. Anyone who voluntarily takes extra work upon themselves, and THEN complains about it, is immature and crying for attention.

i have a duty to improve the world. i will spare you from the assertion that this is in fact every person's duty, but don't stand in my way when i am trying. it doesn't suit you.

Quote from JXQ:

Quote from Nate:

that is a really bad attitude. if someone made a topic on another forum about how i should change things here, i would seriously consider what they were saying.

What makes you think Bisqwit hasn't? We've been subjected to your attempt at controlling the presentation of the TAS community's content several times, and this is not a brand new idea you're presenting here. It was discussed quite fully last time - maybe people just don't see the need to explain to you why they disagree once it hits the second and third time. It could even be argued that you aren't considering what we are saying!

perhaps. again, please see page 7.

Quote from JXQ:

To everyone: please do not respond to me with "Nate is the site's admin, he can do whatever he wants." This argument is simply a way of avoiding the true issue of the discussion and it adds nothing of value to the situation.

i think you underestimate the caliber of people one can find here.

also, it sounds to me like you don't think people would agree with me because i am right, and they only are going to support me because of my position or something. you see, i am they. i am a speaker for the majority and nothing more. you can view me as the result of an opinion poll. if something i say is in fact not best for the majority, then they will correct me (again, see page 7), and we can go on our merry way. this topic was exactly that, actually - i was feeling everyone up to see what course or courses of action i should take to remedy this situation.

[quote="JXQ"]I haven't read everything here in detail, so if I'm repeating points, I apologize.[/quote]
need to read page 7 if nothing else.

[quote="JXQ"]Nate, your entire comparison of this to a government almost makes me sick with your arrogance.  You are speaking as though you have the resposibility to govern all speedrunning materials on the internet.  Yet, you clearly didn't include the idea of TASing when it was introduced, and had no intention of furthering its capabilities of providing entertaining movies - instead, you badmouthed the idea and those who took part in it (just read some of the posts you made in Saturn's RBO thread).  Since you weren't part of the growth, it's safe to say that the community which formed, and now operates on its own terms, had nothing to do with you or your effort.  Suddenly, you want to jump into this community and say its your "responsibility" to dictate how things are done, after the community built itself without any of your help?  It's not your responsibility at all; TASvideos (recent name change) runs just fine without your ideas, and I predict it will continue to do so.  All this "extra work" you do is not required of you.  Rather, you take it upon yourself to do so much that you overstep boundaries and believe that your way is correct for other organizations.  This is intrusive, arrogant, and just rude.[/quote]
not ordering so much as asserting and recommending. i agree that in an ideal world, it should not be my responsibility to take care of everyone, but when some people don't do what they should, the other people have a decision: they can either pick up the slack and save the world, or let everyone suffer and be perhaps as guilty as the original shirker. i only have so long to live, and so i intend to live without regret so much as i am capable.

i agree that it was a mistake for me to ignore tas until earlier this year. there is no doubt in my mind now that if i ran everything, the world would be a better place. i guess it was just not clear to me until just recently how it was necessary that i get involved, because i have known of the tas problem for much longer, coming up on two years now. but i ignored people's pleas for help because i believed the people who said that it would go away on its own, or that it would not affect reasonable people, etc. i guess i have a new perspective now on how lawless the internet really is.

[quote="JXQ"]And now for the red button: [b]TASing is becoming the majority[/b], if it is not already, in the videos that watchers prefer (as opposed to who creates the runs).  I base this opinion on the ever-growing number of cases where people link to a TAS run and say "this is sick!" when presented with a console run of the same game, and then are eventually given explanation of the true nature of the video.  Google pages are not reliable sources.  This is also why I think some who are passionate about console speedrunning are unhappy with the current situation.  More and more people like watching a TAS over a console run, even if they don't fully understand it.  Note that all of this is my opinion.  [/quote]
should tas become the majority then you can come back here and read my first post backwards: if i fail to mark non-tool assisted speed runs as such, then you can feel free to claim i harm the majority (this is why i built the thing around "majority" and "minority", not "speed running" and "tas"). but i think you will find it difficult to convince the majority media, especially in certain parts of the world, that something as intimately involved with piracy as tas will be something they will want to be associated with, much less look like they are promoting. this is especially true as the wii's virtual console approaches and the companies will no doubt adopt a more serious policy regarding piracy (considering they will be losing real revenue now if someone pirates duck hunt or something).

[quote="JXQ"]Nate, in your first post, you use several footnotes, because the point to be made is better summarized elsewhere (in order to fully explain it without interrupting the content you present).  This is similar to the disclaimer given at the beginning of every movie at TASvideos.  A small blurb about tool assistance, along with a place to go to learn more.  If people choose to ignore it, then what more can we do?  Calling them "cheated" doesn't fully explain them any more than tool-assistance because the first thing that will come to many people's minds with the word cheated is "game genie".  Now everyone's doing just as much explaining to clear up the idea as before.  A solution is to place a footnote (web page) to link to that explains things better in each video.  This is already done, so why would TASers choose the term that makes them look like evil people when we aren't trying to hurt anyone and just enjoy providing entertainment?  To make YOU happy?  Please.[/quote]
my happiness is irrelevant. do you feel no sympathy for your fellow man?

[quote="i"]the situation should be evaluated not by how much has been done, but by whether enough has been done. enough has not been done.[/quote]

[quote="JXQ"]Additionally, no matter how watermarked the runs are, it is trivial to reproduce this videos using the emulator and movie file given on the site, finding the ROM, and exporting to AVI in the same way, completely free of all disclaimers.  This will always be a possibility because of the nature of the content.[/quote]
i do not expect you to deal with things i am not also capable of dealing with. i expect no more results than i would expect if i were in charge. i also doubt that it can be considered "trivial" to go through those steps to produce a deceptive, unmarked version - certainly i am one of the very few here who are familiar with the entire process. it is absolutely not something that you can do without reading any documentation or how-to material, even if you have some prior knowledge of digital video production. and i think that, again, we have evidence here that you are misinterpreting what i am saying. i am not saying that there is any intent to deceive (which would be required to put in the insane amount of time and effort required to produce unmarked versions of the tases). i am saying that there is deception going on, and those people who are in a position to do something about it are not doing enough about it (things have been done, but they have not been effective, and i claim that the reasons why they have not been effective should be obvious).

[quote="JXQ"][quote="Nate"]this is crucial: (Red Scarlet) has to explain to them what tas is even though they have already seen the video labeled as such. the tas community and their label have failed the majority audience[/quote]
She is willing to stand behind what you do as an admin because she is part of this site.  She made this clear in the thread about my Super Metroid 100% TAS.  Bisqwit, as the admin of TASvideos, also makes decisions on things at our site, so she should also blindly accept his policies as well.  If this includes "having" to explaining things, then so be it.  Although - no one HAS to do anything.  Anyone who voluntarily takes extra work upon themselves, and THEN complains about it, is immature and crying for attention.[/quote]
i have a duty to improve the world. i will spare you from the assertion that this is in fact every person's duty, but don't stand in my way when i am trying. it doesn't suit you.

[quote="JXQ"][quote="Nate"]that is a really bad attitude. if someone made a topic on another forum about how i should change things here, i would seriously consider what they were saying.[/quote]
What makes you think Bisqwit hasn't?  We've been subjected to your attempt at controlling the presentation of the TAS community's content several times, and this is not a brand new idea you're presenting here.  It was discussed quite fully last time - maybe people just don't see the need to explain to you why they disagree once it hits the second and third time.  It could even be argued that you aren't considering what we are saying![/quote]
perhaps. again, please see page 7.

[quote="JXQ"]To everyone: please do not respond to me with "Nate is the site's admin, he can do whatever he wants."  This argument is simply a way of avoiding the true issue of the discussion and it adds nothing of value to the situation.[/quote]
i think you underestimate the caliber of people one can find here.

also, it sounds to me like you don't think people would agree with me because i am right, and they only are going to support me because of my position or something. you see, [b]i am they[/b]. i am a speaker for the majority and nothing more. you can view me as the result of an opinion poll. if something i say is in fact not best for the majority, then they will correct me (again, see page 7), and we can go on our merry way. this topic was exactly that, actually - i was feeling everyone up to see what course or courses of action i should take to remedy this situation.